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F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

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Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#91

Post by emodendroket »

mikeash wrote: post #87
emodendroket wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen these be used effectively to solicit nonprofit donations, and no one is going to just start sharing their credit details and donation amount without some understanding of what they are doing.

I would dispute that (see 419 scams for example) but it ultimately doesn't matter, when measuring effectiveness of a donation, whether understanding took place. The real question there would then be whether the popups generated more donations than they scared away, which is tough to measure.

Actually it's very easy to measure and the answer is "yes."

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#92

Post by emodendroket »

mikeash wrote: post #83
gk1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For my case, I should clarify that I also have double opt-in enabled for my email list, which means someone doesn't _really_ get added to the list until they click a verification link in their email. So if anyone did enter their email just to continue, they're not counted in that 232. I don't think that's likely, though, since the message was clear about what it is: > Want more users? > OK, that was a cheap trick. Of…

People willingly enter their credentials after clicking on links in obvious phishing e-mails that they have no idea why they received. Do you really think it's unlikely that people clicked your verification link without intending to sign up for additional e-mails from you? It looks to me like you're suffering from the base rate fallacy. You're basically saying, it's unlikely to sign up by accident, therefore most of…

> People willingly enter their credentials after clicking on links in obvious phishing e-mails that they have no idea why they received. Do you really think it's unlikely that people clicked your verification link without intending to sign up for additional e-mails from you?

If people are entering their e-mails and clicking a verification link without wanting to receive e-mails it's absolutely their own damn fault and I don't care.

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#93

Post by Veedrac »

Alupis wrote: post #79
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't fool yourself. Everybody finds them annoying. Like the frog in the frying pan who sits as the heat is turned up, folks have begun to believe its the price of visiting the internet.

> Don't fool yourself. Everybody finds them annoying I don't believe that's true. What we see here is an exhibit of the False-Consensus Effect[1]. You believe they are annoying, and many on HN believe they are annoying, therefore they (popups) must be annoying to everyone. This logic ignores the fact that 99% of web users are not technical, and view the web in an entirely different light. On ecommerce websites, popup…

Have you done user-testing?

I haven't but I've seen non-nerds get irritated by popups. Heck, given that their primary complaint about computers is that they're confusing, the last thing they want is for popups to confuse them further.

[EDIT] Here's a study that agrees with me:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/most-hated-advertising-techn...

I can't find the actual source, though, if a source even exists.

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#94

Post by mikeash »

emodendroket wrote: post #92
mikeash wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People willingly enter their credentials after clicking on links in obvious phishing e-mails that they have no idea why they received. Do you really think it's unlikely that people clicked your verification link without intending to sign up for additional e-mails from you? It looks to me like you're suffering from the base rate fallacy. You're basically saying, it's unlikely to sign up by accident, therefore most of…

> People willingly enter their credentials after clicking on links in obvious phishing e-mails that they have no idea why they received. Do you really think it's unlikely that people clicked your verification link without intending to sign up for additional e-mails from you? If people are entering their e-mails and clicking a verification link without wanting to receive e-mails it's absolutely their own damn fault an…

You may not care about spamming them afterwards (and I sympathize with that view... there's only so much you can do) but if it skews your numbers to the point where you can't determine whether your popups are actually effective, surely you care about that?

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#95

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Alupis wrote: post #79
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't fool yourself. Everybody finds them annoying. Like the frog in the frying pan who sits as the heat is turned up, folks have begun to believe its the price of visiting the internet.

> Don't fool yourself. Everybody finds them annoying I don't believe that's true. What we see here is an exhibit of the False-Consensus Effect[1]. You believe they are annoying, and many on HN believe they are annoying, therefore they (popups) must be annoying to everyone. This logic ignores the fact that 99% of web users are not technical, and view the web in an entirely different light. On ecommerce websites, popup…

I think somebody is fooling themselves, and I think it isn't me. Its self-serving to stick a dialog box in somebody's face, then spend 100's of words defending that choice by denying the obvious.

All the arguments above are about the site, not about the visitor. "capturing customer email", "Buying the right to email market" are not about the visitor gaining value by reading a blog entry. And those who object to the process are "not my target". Very convenient. Perhaps I was a whale with a blank check, reading the blog entry to find out more. One popup and now I'm gone. You'll never know, since you've already convinced yourself this is all ok.

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#96

Post by gk1 »

mikeash wrote: post #83
gk1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For my case, I should clarify that I also have double opt-in enabled for my email list, which means someone doesn't _really_ get added to the list until they click a verification link in their email. So if anyone did enter their email just to continue, they're not counted in that 232. I don't think that's likely, though, since the message was clear about what it is: > Want more users? > OK, that was a cheap trick. Of…

People willingly enter their credentials after clicking on links in obvious phishing e-mails that they have no idea why they received. Do you really think it's unlikely that people clicked your verification link without intending to sign up for additional e-mails from you? It looks to me like you're suffering from the base rate fallacy. You're basically saying, it's unlikely to sign up by accident, therefore most of…

If a person unknowingly does all this: Open blog about user acquisition --> Confuses message about "email updates" to mean they must enter their email --> Opens and clicks verification email clearly stating it's to receive updates --> Proceeds to open future emails about user acquisition and does not unsubscribe... Well, good thing for them that I'm not an African prince.

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#97

Post by JoeAltmaier »

notdanariely wrote: post #72
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't fool yourself. Everybody finds them annoying. Like the frog in the frying pan who sits as the heat is turned up, folks have begun to believe its the price of visiting the internet.

Well, it kinda is the price of visiting the internet. Because most content is free but ad-supported... doesn't that mean viewing ads is the price you pay? (At least in a large sense -- I'm intentionally ignoring adblock technology because as of right now it's just not that significant)

"Most of the Internet" is Netflix (by bandwidth). They charge for their services, and have zero popups or ads.

The rest of the Internet is pay-to-play like Steam. At least for me.

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#98

Post by JoeAltmaier »

emodendroket wrote: post #84
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't fool yourself. Everybody finds them annoying. Like the frog in the frying pan who sits as the heat is turned up, folks have begun to believe its the price of visiting the internet.

If "everyone" finds them annoying why are they clicking the links or giving their e-mail addresses?

9800 out of 10,000? That sure sounds like pretty much "everyone"

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#99

Post by gdilla »

gk1 wrote: post #36

In case you're wondering why anyone would use these _obviously_ annoying popups, here's why: If done right, they actually work. Here's a real example: In March I added a delayed popup to my blog to invite people to subscribe for future updates about user acquisition. It was on a delayed timer so that the reader has a chance to at least get part-way through the post. Also, if you closed it out once then you wouldn't s…

if a few (2%) slip through, it's better than 0 I guess. But why do they have to be in your face? Can't they just slide up on the bottom of the page and stay down there so you can at least finish the sentence you're reading? I'm asking this as a general question.

Re: F*** those popups – signing up those who deserve it

#100

Post by JoeAltmaier »

wernercd wrote: post #86
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way I finish reading anything that pops up halfway through. That's just more callous manipulation of my browser. I leave instantly. If the back button doesn't work, I kill it. How many of those 11,848 people didn't finish your article? Do you care?

How many people stop watching Friends or The Walking Dead because of a commercial? How many sales are made because of the commercials? I'm all for adblockers... but to say that ads can't be unobtrusive and effective is ignoring the fact that they are obviously worth the effort.

Those shows are carefully crafted experiences, with breaks written into the action. The internet experience is nothing like that.
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