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Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

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Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#41

Post by arethuza »

dataker wrote: post #39

Although I'm an atheist, I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Creationism, regardless of its mythological background, still is part of Humanity and any conclusions about it should be drawn by the individual, not the State or teachers. They'd be better off spending more time with Critical Thinking, Scientific Method and Logic, powerful tools to genuinely understand Religion and not just take "facts" for granted.

As I've noted in another comment below.

Kids in Scotland can study Religious, Moral and Philosophical Studies if they want - which is, I believe, a far more appropriate context for religious beliefs than a science class.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#42

Post by mikeash »

itsybitsy wrote: post #31
kbart wrote: post #14

I find it funny and sad that in 21st century we still have to explicitly prohibit such thing. Up next -- "Tooth faery theory banned from dental schools".

If you're comparing creationism to the tooth fairy, it's fair to point out that the alternate scientific theory is that we magically appeared out of nothing, like Dr. Who's telephone box. I'm not arguing for either theory, and certainly not arguing for the teaching of creationism in schools.

I assume that when you say "I'm not arguing for either theory" that you're attempting to come across as balanced in some way. Which is sad, because not arguing for the theory with a massive weight of evidence behind it is completely ridiculous.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the Big Bang or abiogenesis when you say "magically appeared out of nothing," but either way, there's a great deal of evidence that these events did actually happen, even if the exact mechanism for how it happened is not known. In contrast, creationism is outright fiction, like Star Wars or Harry Potter.

There really is not any middle ground here.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#43

Post by tomp »

gizi wrote: post #33

Creationism has obviously no foundation in science but neither has evolutionism. Where are the repeatable experiments required in order to be able to look for counterexamples for evolutionism? Has anybody ever "evolved" a species from another? If yes, how can we repeat that experiment? It is clear that evolutionism has no scientific status either.

You don't understand what evolution is. It really a name, and needs no proof.

Basically, there are a few known facts: (1) organisms die, (2) organisms reproduce, (3) the offspring are different from each other and from the parents, (4) the differences are more or less random, (5) dying is not random but a consequence of external forces, and (6) external forces are relatively constant. From these facts, it logically follows that over generations (or ofganisms reproducing ans dying), the living organisms will become more and more adapted to the environment. To avoid this long and detailed explanation, we just call this process evolution.

It's completely the same as e.g. the word "evaporate" - instead of saying that kinetic energy causes H2O molecules to become more and more excited, and slowly breaks the H bonds between molecules, so that they can move freely inspace (gas), we just say "water evaporates".

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#44

Post by gizi »

olavk wrote: post #40
gizi wrote: post #33

Creationism has obviously no foundation in science but neither has evolutionism. Where are the repeatable experiments required in order to be able to look for counterexamples for evolutionism? Has anybody ever "evolved" a species from another? If yes, how can we repeat that experiment? It is clear that evolutionism has no scientific status either.

You are not correct. Evolution have been observed in nature and artificially reproduced many many times. Just look at dogs. Separate species of fruit flies have been evolved in a laboratory setting.

Can you produce a link to a repeatable experiment in which one species is being "evolved" from another?

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#45

Post by dghf »

wbillingsley wrote: post #25
kbart wrote: post #14

I find it funny and sad that in 21st century we still have to explicitly prohibit such thing. Up next -- "Tooth faery theory banned from dental schools".

There's nothing in the article to suggest they actually did have to (quite the contrary -- the government had been replying for ages that there wasn't a need for a ban). Perhaps I'm cynical, but it seems to have gone like this... "Minister, when will the Government ban bandersnatches from school cupboards?" "Um, I'm pretty sure there aren't any bandersnatches in the school cupboards..." "Minister refuses to ban bande…

The government argued there was no need for a ban because it trusted teachers' judgement, but in at least one primary school, that trust was misplaced: the principal invited an evangelical group in to preach to the children and hand out books that taught creationism as scientific fact.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/parents-outr...

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#46

Post by CyberDildonics »

dataker wrote: post #39

Although I'm an atheist, I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Creationism, regardless of its mythological background, still is part of Humanity and any conclusions about it should be drawn by the individual, not the State or teachers. They'd be better off spending more time with Critical Thinking, Scientific Method and Logic, powerful tools to genuinely understand Religion and not just take "facts" for granted.

It was banned from science classes, they didn't ban theology.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#47

Post by mikeash »

dataker wrote: post #39

Although I'm an atheist, I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Creationism, regardless of its mythological background, still is part of Humanity and any conclusions about it should be drawn by the individual, not the State or teachers. They'd be better off spending more time with Critical Thinking, Scientific Method and Logic, powerful tools to genuinely understand Religion and not just take "facts" for granted.

Would you say this about other subjects, or just the origins of life and the universe?

Would you say that schools should not exclusively teach that 2+2=4, but give the students tools and allow them to draw their own conclusions? Should schools allow students to reach their own conclusions as to whether the Earth is flat, or whether the Sun is pulled across the sky by chariots?

Schools should absolutely teach creationism, in the same classes where they teach Greek mythology, Hindu gods, Native American creation stories, etc. And that is exactly what happens here. To quote the article, "...creationism can be taught in religious and moral education...."

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#48

Post by rndz »

dataker wrote: post #39

Although I'm an atheist, I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Creationism, regardless of its mythological background, still is part of Humanity and any conclusions about it should be drawn by the individual, not the State or teachers. They'd be better off spending more time with Critical Thinking, Scientific Method and Logic, powerful tools to genuinely understand Religion and not just take "facts" for granted.

"Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government"

What's disturbing in this? It's not like they are going to hang everyone who mentions anything about creationism....

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#49

Post by gizi »

jobigoud wrote: post #36
gizi wrote: post #33

Creationism has obviously no foundation in science but neither has evolutionism. Where are the repeatable experiments required in order to be able to look for counterexamples for evolutionism? Has anybody ever "evolved" a species from another? If yes, how can we repeat that experiment? It is clear that evolutionism has no scientific status either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution

They may indeed try to evolve a species out of another. In all examples in your link, they stay within the same species, however. There is simply no convincing experiment in which they evolve one species out of another. It does not exist.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#50

Post by mikeash »

kendallpark wrote: post #34

It's fine to teach creationism... just not in a science class. What the majority of the creation supporters don't get is that creationism isn't a science, it's a philosophy. There's nothing constructive or tangible about the theory. You can't test it in a lab, you can't observe it in nature--unless you think irreducible complexity (aka "we don't understand how this could come about, therefore it must be divinely crea…

In my experience (of which I unfortunately have far too much), creationists fundamentally don't understand what science is, which is why they think their ideas qualify. They simply don't grasp the depth or the quantitative nature that underlies statements like "the universe is 13 billion years old" or "humans evolved from single-celled organisms."

It's basically cargo-culting popular science articles. They see something like "continental drift is demonstrated by how the coastlines of Africa and the Americas fit so neatly together." They then come up with something that sounds similar, like, "the Grand Canyon could have been carved by a huge and sudden deluge, demonstrating Noah's Flood." The fact that the Africa/Americas thing is just a brief summary of mountains (sometimes literally so) of data is completely lost.

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