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Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

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Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#81
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that f.g (or, as a mathematician or physicist might write it, ⟨f, g⟩ or ⟨f|g⟩) has no independent meaning, but must be defined ; and one way to define it (for `L^2` functions, the only one compatible with the `L^2` norm) is as stephencanon did at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9620263 .

Well, it's not just any arbitrary definition, it's the projection of f onto g. Intuitively, sum(f_i * g_i).

> Well, it's not just any arbitrary definition, it's the projection of f onto g.

'Projection' also has no intuitive (EDIT: I meant 'intrinsic') meaning; "inner product" is the same structure as "projection + norm" (subject to appropriate axioms). Anyway, I didn't mean to claim that the definition was arbitrary, but rather that there was no way to argue against it: definitions can't be wrong (at worst, they can be infelicitous, uninteresting, or uninhabited).

> Intuitively, sum(f_i * g_i).

I think rndn (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9621422 )'s objection applies to this intuition: to get a reasonable approximation of the integral, you need a lot of sample points, and any sum that doesn't take into account the spacing of those sample points has a good chance of diverging. (Consider f = g = 1, so that the sum is just a count of the number of sample points!)

Once you write sum(f(x_i) * g(x_i) * (dx)_i), of course, this becomes just notation for (a sequence of) Riemann sums, whose limit is by definition the integral (for continuous functions).

Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#82
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's not just any arbitrary definition, it's the projection of f onto g. Intuitively, sum(f_i * g_i).

> Well, it's not just any arbitrary definition, it's the projection of f onto g. 'Projection' also has no intuitive (EDIT: I meant 'intrinsic') meaning; "inner product" is the same structure as "projection + norm" (subject to appropriate axioms). Anyway, I didn't mean to claim that the definition was arbitrary, but rather that there was no way to argue against it: definitions can't be wrong (at worst, they can be inf…

Sampling has nothing to do with this. The inner product of f (x) and g (x) simply is the integral with respect to x of their pointwise scalar products (I suppose in a very broad sense "pointwise" could be seen as analogous to sampling, as could "with respect to x", but the Calculus Gods will smite any who think of dx as a sample of x). The "ah ha" moment was in seeing inner product as the fundamental operation and integration as derived from it.

Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#83
post #36

The hardest ( ie , best) math prof I ever had (I was in EE, he was in the math department) used to say that "engineers can teach calculus, but their students cannot go on to teach calculus". I'm impressed by someone who knows a subject deeply enough to take that long of a view. Personally, I just like the engineering view of dx and dy as simply being new variables (with caveats that we immediately forget). Which is w…

> An integral is the inner product of a function and a suitably-dimensioned unit. Does that mean that ∫f(x)dx is f.(dx, dx, …) = f(x_0)·dx + f(x_1)·dx + f(x_2)·dx + … for all x in the domain?

Does that mean that ∫f(x)dx is f.(dx, dx, …) = f(x_0)·dx + f(x_1)·dx + f(x_2)·dx + … for all x in the domain?

No, though it is true that the integral with respect to x, as an operation, is the limit of that summation as dx approaches 0. But the point wasn't about any particular numerical or symbolic manipulation we could do (this was a graduate-level calculus class, after all; we all knew how to actually integrate things).

Generally, when you learn inner products of functions, you learn the definition

f·g = ∫(f(x)g(x))dx where the concatenation there of f(x) and g(x) represents scalar multiplication. We all know how integration works, so this becomes how we define inner products.

My professor's point was to reverse the primacy there. We have a sense from vector operations of what inner products are; that can inform our intuition of what an integral is. That is, rather than saying "I know how to do an integral so I can now take an inner product of two functions", say "I have an intuition of what an inner product is, that is, the projection of one vector onto another to form a scalar, and that should inform my intuition of what an integral is".

The larger motivation for the whole talk was introducing Clifford algebras and the symmetry between dot product generalized to inner product opposed by outer product on the one hand, and cross product generalized to wedge product opposed by interior product on the other hand.

And, just to finish the mathjerking, the whole point of the course was to get to:

(δΩ)∫ω = (Ω)∫dω

ie, the most general case of Stokes' theorem. But that takes a lot of sussing out of what the differential operator d actually is.

Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ratios in a right triangle perhaps?

How did you get that information? How did you, in a non-magical way, go from information about an angle to information about a ratio? If students don't know this information, then perhaps they are studying applications. So, what applications are students taught in typical trigonometric texts? Periodic behavior perhaps? Like sound? Only perhaps a brief blurb in the text that application is even possible. Perhaps they…

My introduction was through model rocketry. Somewhere along the line, Al-Biruni's method for finding the radius of the earth was brought up. That was in the early '70s, in what would be "junior high" in the US (elementary school in my part of Canada). It was always about right triangles, not periodic functions, at the beginning, which makes a whole lot of sense - trigonometry was both useful and used for a whole lot of years before calculus was invented. And like logarithms in the pre-scientific-calculator days, there was a point where one turned to tables for practical reasons without thinking of the table values as "magicical" - we were taught how to calculate intermediate values to the limits of practicality. Is there any practical sense (a sense that would be useful for people who would be entering the trades track) in being able to calculate much more accurately than you can measure angles?

Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How did you, in a non-magical way, go from information about an angle to information about a ratio? By having a right triangle? The rest of your post seems to show that you want trig to be about periodic behavior, when it really is about triangles. That's what trigonometry means - measuring triangles. Yes, trig has applications to periodic behavior, projectiles, differential equations, inclined planes, and all kind…

But that's my point: it's not really about triangles; that's just a rather mundane application. Trig is really about complex exponentials that solve f'' + f = 0.

It is about triangles. The idea that sine is the solution of this ODE for f(0)=0 and f'(0)=1 is quite modern.

I would say a course on trigonometry usually covers (my experience): trigonometric functions exact value of them for the angles 30, 45, 60, 90 ... degrees Trigonometric formulas for the sum and difference of angles. A formuka for the double and the half angle. Law of sine and law of cosine Lots of relations derived from the Pythagoras theorem (sin^2+cos^=1) how to solve trigonometric equations

With all this, you are equipped to completely determine a triangle, knowing some of its and the length of some its sides. As as application, I was taught, how to measure heights and distances provided you can measure angles.

Thus, without trigonometry, it would be fairly hard to take a course on analytic geometry.

Now, how would the course be enhanced by introducing sine as the solution of an ODE?

Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#86
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An integral is the inner product of a function and a suitably-dimensioned unit. Does that mean that ∫f(x)dx is f.(dx, dx, …) = f(x_0)·dx + f(x_1)·dx + f(x_2)·dx + … for all x in the domain?

Does that mean that ∫f(x)dx is f.(dx, dx, …) = f(x_0)·dx + f(x_1)·dx + f(x_2)·dx + … for all x in the domain? No, though it is true that the integral with respect to x, as an operation, is the limit of that summation as dx approaches 0. But the point wasn't about any particular numerical or symbolic manipulation we could do (this was a graduate-level calculus class, after all; we all knew how to actually integrate th…

> mathjerking

Well, a proper math education is something that many people can only dream of.

Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it's not just any arbitrary definition, it's the projection of f onto g. 'Projection' also has no intuitive (EDIT: I meant 'intrinsic') meaning; "inner product" is the same structure as "projection + norm" (subject to appropriate axioms). Anyway, I didn't mean to claim that the definition was arbitrary, but rather that there was no way to argue against it: definitions can't be wrong (at worst, they can be inf…

Sampling has nothing to do with this. The inner product of f (x) and g (x) simply is the integral with respect to x of their pointwise scalar products (I suppose in a very broad sense "pointwise" could be seen as analogous to sampling, as could "with respect to x", but the Calculus Gods will smite any who think of dx as a sample of x). The "ah ha" moment was in seeing inner product as the fundamental operation and in…

> I suppose in a very broad sense "pointwise" could be seen as analogous to sampling

Indeed, I don't understand how it could be otherwise. To multiply functions pointwise, you need to know their values at points. It seems to me that 'sampling' is a very good word to describe the process of evaluating a function at a lot of points.

> as could "with respect to x", but the Calculus Gods will smite any who think of dx as a sample of x

Indeed not! It is the spacing between sample points. That is, the `dx` in an integral literally stands for the "ghost of [the] departed quantity" `x_{i + 1} - x_i` (and, in an infinitesimal approach to calculus, it doesn't just stand for but literally is such a difference).

Re: Calculus for mathematicians (1997) [pdf]

#89
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... you can use the half-angle formulas and the angle addition formulas to calculate sin and cos for angles that are arbitrarily close to the ones that you want. Add to that the idea that sin and cos must be continuous (I consider that intuitively obvious from a unit circle, but I don't know how to make that argument rigorous), and you can start to interpolate. You can in fact use these methods to calculate sin a…

I do not believe that there is an argument for continuity without starting with Calculus. Certainly starting from ruler and compass constructions it is not obvious. That said, if you have enough Calculus to define how to measure the arclength of a segment of the circle, you can quickly prove that sin and cos in radians exist, have a nice power series, and so on. It is like x^y with x positive. We can manually define…

Replying really late, just in case anybody reads this. (I went on vacation, and this occurred to me then.)

If you don't have calculus, you don't have anything like a delta-epsilon proof of continuity. But without calculus, you also don't know that you need it. So you just assume (correctly) that you can interpolate, and it works just like you expect, and life goes on.

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