My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India • Hacker News Board

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#31

Post by g960 » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:09 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #28

g960 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from a city in Britain Britain has a higher rate than the US. My argument still holds. Actually, my experience with crime rates is that where crime is common it goes unreported. Given nominal reporting rates of 50% for D.C (which is being far too kind), and 10% (which is far too harsh) for Delhi, still leaves it twice as safe (and thrice as safe as London). It takes an hour to dig up the data online. > I can o…

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checkin...

The parent post is only about "Crimes against women". Your link is about general crimes, oh great skeptic.

I have to merge all my answers here because HN (suprise ! suprise!) prevent answering questions, because apparently reality is does not fit the propaganda you've all been fed.

Have happy life in your ignorance.

@DanBC:

I don't give a shit. HN like is filled with bigots (if comments here are any proof). India does have crime statistics online: http://ncrb.gov.in/ .

Now who's the one making up things ?

@rimantas:

More atrocity literature!

To answer your question. Yes (well atleast nearly). It remains better than Sweden at any rate.

There really hasn't been much by way of statistics for the former, only conjecture by media outlets which are inherently biased.

Assuming less adversarial reporting rates (and not adding the abortion counts in the US) still makes it comparable to that in the US.

If you do add the abortion counts (for I'm sure you're as much pro-life as you are anti-India) the comparison will tilt more towards India again.

Happy dear (and a clever one too!) Hinduphobe ? Do you want to send them to the gas chamber and get this farce over with ?

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#32

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:10 AM UTC

g960 wrote: post #7

dijit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an unpopular opinion on the types of people who keep harping on about sexism in tech. And I'm not in a position to say it doesn't exist- (being a white guy and full of privilege), however it does seem that a lot of girls in tech are making a career of painting all other engineers as being inherently misogynistic, vacuous or malicious. I mean, I don't believe we should put barriers up for women who want to be i…

I don't know if you read the (sarcasm) at the end. I find it ironic that while you shower self-pity when it comes to the US but paint India black anyway. India infact has a lower crime rate against women than the US (even after accounting for differences in reporting rates). Delhi comes out being "safer" than D.C; South India is apparently much safer (author appears to be from Chennai?). I'm given to believe that thi…

How would one account for differences in reporting rates? The book you cite seems completely unrelated to this claim. I.e., citation needed.

Anecdotally, this seems insane to me. In 2 years in India I observed more violent eve teasing than in 30 years in the US. Just talking to women, you get wildly different stories in both places - in the US it's "someone unattractive asked me out and I felt uncomfortable, almost like a rape", whereas in India it's "meh, he just grabbed my ass and walked off, no biggie".

Now it could be the case that upper class Indians (the main folks I dealt with) are just far more violent than middle class Americans, and that the masses of poor Indians are vastly more peaceful than their upper class compatriots. But that does seem a bit unlikely to me.

Further anecdote: in the US, reporters have a hard time finding rape poster girls who aren't blatantly making stuff up (e.g. mattress girl, duke stripper or rolling stone girl). In India, most of the rape poster girls are dead or badly injured.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#33

Post by DanBC » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:10 AM UTC

g960 wrote: post #31

pjc50 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checkin...

The parent post is only about "Crimes against women". Your link is about general crimes, oh great skeptic. I have to merge all my answers here because HN (suprise ! suprise!) prevent answering questions, because apparently reality is does not fit the propaganda you've all been fed. Have happy life in your ignorance. @DanBC: I don't give a shit. HN like is filled with bigots (if comments here are any proof). India doe…

> oh great skeptic

Please would you consider stopping that?

You might want to re-read the guidelines.

Parent post has at least posted a link to support their argument; where's yours? I know that you're wrong, and when you tell me what data you're using I'll be able to tell you why you're wrong. (The UK has extensive and robust crime statistics from police reports but also a crime survey. India doesn't.)

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#34

Post by brador » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:24 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #20

brador wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which city in Britain has a strong crime culture? London?

Coventry.. it was industrious once. Now it's very crime-addled. However almost all of it goes unreported. it's only after leaving a culture like that you realise it's so strange. Edit: Hm, I got downvoted. Lets see if I can break down a summary of my life for people who don't think Coventry is bad (news articles in google seem to say it's not bad anymore). but, stats: I've been mugged 17 times in 20 years, my home ha…

What's peeling? Google gives nothing...

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#35

Post by sparaker » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:29 AM UTC

firasd wrote: post #15

As the author points out, the path into tech in India is seen as a lot more broadly applicable; it's a pathway into middle-class job like being a doctor. It's also a good base on which you can move overseas to work in the Middle East or Western countries. An interesting point she brings up is that gender bias in how one looks at STEM subjects is not universal. In many countries there isn't a prevalent idea that girls…

I think learning to program is good for you in other aspects of life as well. You are able to make more informed and logical decisions due to your knowledge of programming.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#36

Post by jsudhams » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:32 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

g960 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you read the (sarcasm) at the end. I find it ironic that while you shower self-pity when it comes to the US but paint India black anyway. India infact has a lower crime rate against women than the US (even after accounting for differences in reporting rates). Delhi comes out being "safer" than D.C; South India is apparently much safer (author appears to be from Chennai?). I'm given to believe that thi…

How would one account for differences in reporting rates? The book you cite seems completely unrelated to this claim. I.e., citation needed. Anecdotally, this seems insane to me. In 2 years in India I observed more violent eve teasing than in 30 years in the US. Just talking to women, you get wildly different stories in both places - in the US it's "someone unattractive asked me out and I felt uncomfortable , almost…

"whereas in India it's "meh, he just grabbed my ass and walked off, no biggie". Seriously that is only upper class and only happen in upper class places. Believe me if that happens in an area where middle class is there the guy who did that will get public merciless beating. Any of my know circles will surely slap the guy in the same place. I think in India domestic violence is the huge thing for girls. Still not even in educated families we overrule women just like that and we hide behind the name of culture.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#37

Post by dijit » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:41 AM UTC

brador wrote: post #34

dijit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coventry.. it was industrious once. Now it's very crime-addled. However almost all of it goes unreported. it's only after leaving a culture like that you realise it's so strange. Edit: Hm, I got downvoted. Lets see if I can break down a summary of my life for people who don't think Coventry is bad (news articles in google seem to say it's not bad anymore). but, stats: I've been mugged 17 times in 20 years, my home ha…

What's peeling? Google gives nothing...

A type of flaying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaying

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#38

Post by dijit » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:47 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #29

dijit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coventry.. it was industrious once. Now it's very crime-addled. However almost all of it goes unreported. it's only after leaving a culture like that you realise it's so strange. Edit: Hm, I got downvoted. Lets see if I can break down a summary of my life for people who don't think Coventry is bad (news articles in google seem to say it's not bad anymore). but, stats: I've been mugged 17 times in 20 years, my home ha…

You got downvoted for making an extreme claim (crime riddled; extremely dangerous place to live) that just isn't supported by stats, and then claiming that the stats are wrong. Assuming for the moment that the police stats are wrong we'd still see increased insurance costs for people living in Coventry, and we don't. Support your claims with more than anecdote.

Insurance costs are taken from crime statistics and insurance claims. Nobody I know has insurance.

the problem is that this data is completely off-radar. The Coventry people are incredibly insular and untrusting. The idea is that you are either alone, or with your community- if you're community rejects you because you don't like their kids putting rotting fish in your letter box (for example) then you're on your own.

People don't get insurance because they think that by declaring their assets they invite people who work in the insurance firms to sell that information to burglars. (which does happen occasionally).

Crime goes mostly unreported because the police are untrusted, even if they had extremely noble intentions the people in coventry are a black box in terms of information- nobody will "snitch" on anybody else.

if someone was caught snitching then that person becomes one of the "rare" cases of a stabbing or extreme coersion to leave the city. (punctured tires, cutting brake lines, random people coming to kick your door in late at night and leaving without coming in, etc)

Your statistics lie about coventry, which is my point entirely.. the problem can't be fixed because there is no statistics on the problem to begin with. Although those in the West Midlands tend to avoid Coventry except for a shopping visit.

As much as it's anecdotal, I can think of a LOT of people I know who had to leave Coventry, I should show you a cross section of the people I went to school with- Crime is a way of life there, it's not even seen as "Crime" it's just.. it just is, you know it's a crime and the police become your enemies, but they were never your friends to begin with.

Anyway, I've been on the wrong side of the law, but as soon as my environment changed I was -able- to become an upstanding person.

Your stats are lying, and I'm not trying to upset or offend you but there are places like Coventry all over the world.. unquantifiable by normal statistics.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#39

Post by sharmi » Thu, May 28, 2015, 11:55 AM UTC

Hi, I am the author here. I am kind of overwhelmed that my post got onto HN and there are so many comments :)

This post was not meant to be a comprehensive social commentary. The post was triggered in response to a question from one of my friends at a local meetup on how to improve the gender imbalance. So the post tended to be more in tune with how to address that particular issue.

This post is also not meant to decry or judge the women who voice out their opinions and experiences at work. It takes a lot of courage to talk about sexism at work as it can potentially affect the relationships with colleagues and also their future employment. Besides, it is impossible for me judge something based on just news reports.

Women in India too have issues to tackle. The disproportional work for women at home in general which affects their participation outside. The inability to take off from work post-pregnancy for more than the prescribed period even if she wanted to. Cultural restrictions on what a woman can do or cannot do. These need to be addressed. But I believe these are more social issues than issues in tech. I respect the women who speak out regarding these and the men who acknowledge and support them. Without them progress would not be made.

Unfortunately the proportion of the polarity of reports turn out to be more like product reviews. Say 10% of negative issues are reported. Not even 0.1% of the positive aspects are reported. (I am pulling numbers from the air, but I hope you get the picture ;) ) Thats because, when things go right, we often fail to notice. This often results in a skewed negative image. I have mostly been surrounded by men (father, brother, hubby, friends, colleagues, professors, teachers) who were most supportive of what I did and I believe they deserve credit too. Also, there must more such men and women out there in tech, who can/do inspire more girls into this interesting field. I believe as individuals, we can make a difference.

Also, again, my experience is not definitive. Others might have had a different experience.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#40

Post by lnkmails » Thu, May 28, 2015, 12:11 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #9

dijit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an unpopular opinion on the types of people who keep harping on about sexism in tech. And I'm not in a position to say it doesn't exist- (being a white guy and full of privilege), however it does seem that a lot of girls in tech are making a career of painting all other engineers as being inherently misogynistic, vacuous or malicious. I mean, I don't believe we should put barriers up for women who want to be i…

I think people in tech circles in India are compartively liberal and progressive. That said, sexism does exist. And people aren't even remotely as vocal as folks in the US are. India is complicated and not as individualistic as the West is. It is also corrupted and racist. The thing is, even the victim doesn't realise s/he is a victim of racism or sexism and so on. Ignorance is bliss... Like the author said... You're…

> not as individualistic as the West is

Why is America representative of the west? It's a sample point. I have many European colleagues who have similar values as Indians. Collective mentality is prevalent in many western societies too. Reason Americans are individualistic is because of foundations of American democracy which glorifies individualism. It's not necessarily bad.

>It is also corrupted and racist. The thing is, even the victim doesn't realise s/he is a victim of racism or sexism and so on.

This is rather a naive statement. Victims definitely would realize if something is sexist/racist. They might not be in a position to fix it. India has pretty significant legislation (Prevention of Atrocities Act) protecting minorities. Problem is enforcement.

>Like the author said... You're reading viewpoint of exactly one woman in tech in India.

I could argue the same about the opposite viewpoint derived on a society by reading isolated rape cases or corruption cases in India. I don't want to trivialize the problem of rape or corruption but I think it is unreasonable to think that every woman will be raped if she walks alone in India which is what the western media mostly portrays. My undergraduate class in India where I studied engineering had 40% women students. Most laboratory work was in mixed groups. My advisor was a woman. There were 40% woman lecturers. So I am definitely used to seeing women in Engineering. My mother is one too. If you will, this is an observation of society I grew up in.