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Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

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Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#111
post #78

If you'd told me ten years ago I would ever support a basic income, I would have laughed. My thought would have been, "People getting paid without doing anything? Absurd!" But, in the past few years I've thoroughly changed my mind on this, and a number of other fronts. I now fully support a basic income (though I think a debate needs to happen about how much that basic income ought to be and how it ought to be funded…

> The increased cost for extending that type of benefit to everyone, while removing the bureaucracy of maintaining the existing programs (eligibility compliance and case workers, etc.), is actually not as dramatic as it first seems. You are missing one part, though. If you start giving cash for everyone, it's very likely this will result in raising prices for all commodities. And there you go for a another downward s…

> raising prices for all commodities

If one takes a look at prices in each century, prices for each type of commodity vary a lot. For example, in the 1960 you could rent a house where I live for the same price you paid buying 5L milk. Since then the cheapest rents has gone up by factor of thousands, but milk has only gone up by factor of 8. During that time period, many reforms has happen including minimum wages, the strong middle class, and many efforts to reduces poverty.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#112

If you'd told me ten years ago I would ever support a basic income, I would have laughed. My thought would have been, "People getting paid without doing anything? Absurd!" But, in the past few years I've thoroughly changed my mind on this, and a number of other fronts. I now fully support a basic income (though I think a debate needs to happen about how much that basic income ought to be and how it ought to be funded…

I agree with you, but how do you propose going about giving this underclass the leverage they need to make this happen? Short of encouraging them to kill rich people of course, which anyway would get you killed or neutralized long before you had any hope of success. Our system is simply not set up to reliably make changes for the benefit of people with no leverage over it in the first place.

The underclass can't. The system's default state as it functions now is to eliminate the "extra" people with depravation. Soon technology will make nearly everyone extra. So the best case scenario for the current system is that these extra people are quietly starved out while a very very few prosper beyond current imagination. History does not suggest it will play out this way. Far more likely is a revolution that will make the French revolution of recent history seem like a mild heckling.

Many of the rich are worthless rent-seekers who probably deserve no less but some of those rich will be the people who bring the technology in the first place. If a revolution happens it will wipe out most of human progress. Enlightened self interest by the people on top is probably our best chance.

I'm with Joe on this one. We're in the tough spot of discovering that our present economic system is becoming unsustainable and all the other ones we've tried so far have been much worse. UBI is the best idea I've heard so far.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#113

One thing I've always wondered about the basic income is wont it just mean prices go up because people are greedy? Take the article about trailer parks that was on here a week ago: The business owners said that they had to be careful when raising prices to make sure tenants can still afford it. If their tenants suddenly get an extra $1000/month, what's to stop them putting the rent up by $1000/month?

What's to stop them? Generally the same thing that stops people from price gouging elsewhere - competitors offering better service and / or price.

Unless someone is being forced to pay, getting greedy isn't a great way to stay in business. Indeed, it's a pretty reliable way of getting driven out of business. After all, nothing attracts competition faster than fat and easy profits.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#114
post #40

"And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,

By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;

But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#116
post #111
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The increased cost for extending that type of benefit to everyone, while removing the bureaucracy of maintaining the existing programs (eligibility compliance and case workers, etc.), is actually not as dramatic as it first seems. You are missing one part, though. If you start giving cash for everyone, it's very likely this will result in raising prices for all commodities. And there you go for a another downward s…

> raising prices for all commodities If one takes a look at prices in each century, prices for each type of commodity vary a lot. For example, in the 1960 you could rent a house where I live for the same price you paid buying 5L milk. Since then the cheapest rents has gone up by factor of thousands, but milk has only gone up by factor of 8. During that time period, many reforms has happen including minimum wages, the…

> in the 1960 you could rent a house where I live for the same price you paid buying 5L milk.

Really? Then your 5L milk must have been seriously overpriced, or nobody wanted to live wherever that was.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#118
post #72

One of the better article on subject. It's affordable, though it implies new huge tax. Like tax on land. Though not sure if people would support that, once they saw the bill for their land. Changing status quo is hard. Though I would suggest that universal free healthcare is some form of basic income. Maybe let's do it first? Another less hardcore version is to expand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_cr…

> it implies new huge tax There are countries (especially Northern Europe) that already spend a large amount of money for unemployment and social benefits. In those countries the basic income could be implemented in a cost-neutral manner, just refactoring how the the sum of money equal to the present benefits, is allotted.

Yes, but in USA it wouldn't be possible.

E.g. Total welfare spending in 2015 is $454.3 bln / 318 mln population ~= 1428 $/person/year. That's equivalent of basic income 119 $/month. Want to get to 1000 $/month? Need to increase welfare spending 10 fold.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_welfare_spending_40.h...

People who get larger number use also pension or health care money. Though I don't think it is a good idea or other people would support that.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#119
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call me old fashion but a system that relies on coercion to get people to work isn't viable in my mind.

That is not old fashioned at all. What systems to get people to work do not rely on coercion? Even nature, which got us to work on the first place, did so by coercion. The only way we can make a society more accommodating is to change the type of coercion to a more gentle one. I.e., instead of working to avoid starvation and being eaten by wild animals people now work to avoid going into debt, losing their preferred…

No the alternative is to make people to work by incentives. It is the stick vs the carrot.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but how do you propose going about giving this underclass the leverage they need to make this happen? Short of encouraging them to kill rich people of course, which anyway would get you killed or neutralized long before you had any hope of success. Our system is simply not set up to reliably make changes for the benefit of people with no leverage over it in the first place.

I have no idea. Systems of oppression do tend to do whatever it takes to maintain the status quo.

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