Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#21

Post by hurin » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:22 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #8

I always found the idea interesting, at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits. It is a simple and elegant way to solve the welfare trap and it also would be easier and cheaper to manage than the layers of benefits from various gvt agencies. To me there are only two real risks. First the idea that this will lead more people to stop working instead of less, which would be counterproductive. And I f…

You couldn't actually not work in former socialist countries though. At least in the Soviet Union this was actively persecuted. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_%28social_offense%2...)

But I do think think that countries which offer a great deal of socialized benefits (such as Finland, Sweden etc.) have a significant problem with a unemployment in the youngest generation of the labor force.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#22

Post by IanCal » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:23 AM UTC

akhatri_aus wrote: post #12

[deleted] wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I see all the arguments for it, but I always find this to be the argument against it which I believe would be the issue myself. If one had basic income why would they need to work? The incentives favour against the need to work. That income could be saved up and used in countries where the PPP value is much higher. Or just live and not work (which would decrease tax revenues forth). If people started to work less the…

> If one had basic income why would they need to work?

Because people want more than $12k/year can buy? Many people here do contract work, how many of them stop once they've earned $12k/year?

Did you read the article? There is a section on this. You may disagree with the analysis, but we should really start from what's actually being argued.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#23

Post by cm2187 » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:24 AM UTC

hurin wrote: post #21

cm2187 wrote: post #8

I always found the idea interesting, at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits. It is a simple and elegant way to solve the welfare trap and it also would be easier and cheaper to manage than the layers of benefits from various gvt agencies. To me there are only two real risks. First the idea that this will lead more people to stop working instead of less, which would be counterproductive. And I f…

You couldn't actually not work in former socialist countries though. At least in the Soviet Union this was actively persecuted. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_%28social_offense%2... ) But I do think think that countries which offer a great deal of socialized benefits (such as Finland, Sweden etc.) have a significant problem with a unemployment in the youngest generation of the labor force.

Call me old fashion but a system that relies on coercion to get people to work isn't viable in my mind.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#24

Post by fizzbatter » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:25 AM UTC

akhatri_aus wrote: post #12

[deleted] wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I see all the arguments for it, but I always find this to be the argument against it which I believe would be the issue myself. If one had basic income why would they need to work? The incentives favour against the need to work. That income could be saved up and used in countries where the PPP value is much higher. Or just live and not work (which would decrease tax revenues forth). If people started to work less the…

I'm not going to pretend to know the complexities of this type of issue, so don't infer too much from my following comment..

With that said, specifically replying to your comment: I would work, because the income levels i've seen in this thread ($1k/m) would barely be enough to live on.

Hell, my existing debt alone (car), and current housing cost, keep me working. The idea of having to sell nearly everything to survive on the base income is not something i enjoy.

Furthermore, even if i did end up at the base income after selling most of my more expensive cost-laden possessions, most people enjoy having money to purchase technology, entertainment, etc.

With that said, i still love the idea of a base income. Knowing that if you fell out of work, ill, or whatever - you could still live? That you wouldn't go homeless? That really feels like a .. positive, proud of my country sort of thing.

Again, i'm not claiming that any of this would work, or that i know anything. I'm simply replying to your question, from a personal standpoint. :)

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#25

Post by vlasev » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:25 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #8

I always found the idea interesting, at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits. It is a simple and elegant way to solve the welfare trap and it also would be easier and cheaper to manage than the layers of benefits from various gvt agencies. To me there are only two real risks. First the idea that this will lead more people to stop working instead of less, which would be counterproductive. And I f…

The idea of Basic Income goes hand in hand with the process of automation. There are millions of jobs that will go away due to automation. The counter-argument to "will basic income lead more people to stop working" is not "people are working too hard anyway" but rather "most people won't have a job...coming soon". What are all those people going to do once this happens? Find another job? Yeah right. Here [1] is an article discussing this very problem.

Also, I don't think the second risk you mention is really applicable. What's to stop a nation implementing BI from capping the number of immigrants it admits? Or am I misunderstanding you.

[1]: https://medium.com/basic-income/should-we-be-afraid-very-afr...

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#26

Post by akhatri_aus » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:25 AM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #19

akhatri_aus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see all the arguments for it, but I always find this to be the argument against it which I believe would be the issue myself. If one had basic income why would they need to work? The incentives favour against the need to work. That income could be saved up and used in countries where the PPP value is much higher. Or just live and not work (which would decrease tax revenues forth). If people started to work less the…

THe incentives work against crappy jobs and low paid work, otherwise working is extra money: that's a pretty big incentive. EVeryone that makes more than 1k dollars a month now would keep working to not see their income substantially diminish. Those that get abuse from work, and minimum wage might consider doing something else. Which is a step forward.

Who would do those jobs? And who would pay for the tax revenue lost when the production those jobs create disappears to fund the BI going forward?

Also, because you'll say people will work on better jobs and make more production how do you know they'll do this: If they have the income they need why would someone work and say not save it and spend it in a 3rd world country where everything is cheaper? Its so likely it creates a cycle of poverty.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#27

Post by bandrami » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:28 AM UTC

akhatri_aus wrote: post #12

[deleted] wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I see all the arguments for it, but I always find this to be the argument against it which I believe would be the issue myself. If one had basic income why would they need to work? The incentives favour against the need to work. That income could be saved up and used in countries where the PPP value is much higher. Or just live and not work (which would decrease tax revenues forth). If people started to work less the…

If one had basic income why would they need to work?

Why do you want people to work? Is there a stack of widgets going unmade that desperately needs to be made? Are we fighting a two-ocean war and I missed it?

Right now half of the country is trying to work and there aren't enough jobs for them. It's 2015. What the hell was the point of the past century of technological improvement if we all still have to have jobs our whole adult lives?

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#28

Post by Qantourisc » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:28 AM UTC

The only risk in my opinion is if to little people still pick up a job to satisfy the need for all. Also the basic income should need to be basic, so there is some insensitive to work (at least a little). Can be adjusted of course to compensate. IMPORTANT: legal and medical support has to be free for this to not cause epic issues. (And maybe some others I forgot.)

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#29

Post by akhatri_aus » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:28 AM UTC

fizzbatter wrote: post #24

akhatri_aus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see all the arguments for it, but I always find this to be the argument against it which I believe would be the issue myself. If one had basic income why would they need to work? The incentives favour against the need to work. That income could be saved up and used in countries where the PPP value is much higher. Or just live and not work (which would decrease tax revenues forth). If people started to work less the…

I'm not going to pretend to know the complexities of this type of issue, so don't infer too much from my following comment.. With that said, specifically replying to your comment: I would work, because the income levels i've seen in this thread ($1k/m) would barely be enough to live on. Hell, my existing debt alone (car), and current housing cost, keep me working. The idea of having to sell nearly everything to survi…

I would like basic income too! It is awesome I'd have more money in my pocket.

$1000 a month is lots of money to live off elsewhere. It's easy to save by living a bit shabbily for a while. Not everyone will see it that way they should work more. I'm content with very little.

I don't want to be homeless or stuck when I'm sick. But I also don't want to be living in poverty in 20-30 years time which is potentially a big problem with BI due to the vicious cycle it would create with decreasing tax revenues.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#30

Post by jbb555 » Thu, May 28, 2015, 7:30 AM UTC

Give me $1000 a month and I'd be able to retire. I wouldn't be rich but with savings and so on I'd be able to manage. So it would cost perhaps $30000 more than that in lost income taxes too as well as lost productivity. I imagine very many people would do this.

The whole whole idea is stupid.