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Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

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Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#81
I interviewed at a rather fast growing startup in SF (hear about it here on hn pretty often).

The interview was simply 'sit on that corner and fix this bug'. I said I don't work for free, so they said 'oh sure, we'll pay for that!'. Finished the bug fix, expecting a follow-up review or anything, so their CTO responded with 'oh, that was too fast. Hm, let me get you another bug.'. At that point I realised their git log must have at least a hundred different names on it.

I politely refused and said if there wasn't no interview, I'd just leave. They gave me a check and that was that.

One week later, the CEO emails me saying they'd love to hire me, but I'd have to quit my job first and they'd evaluate my case after 2 months with them (I was an h1b at the time).

'No thanks.'

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#82
post #41

That smells a bit fishy. I think you've dodged a bullet. I have to be a bit cautious here, because our company does something similar. We have a little programming challenge that we ask candidates to submit. We don't use those submissions in production. We find it gives people with non-traditional backgrounds a chance to show their chops, and gives us some meat to discuss during an interview. The challenge probably t…

Obviously anyone really good won't actually do the tests because they'll be offered a job by somewhere that doesn't do them before they get around to yours though, sooo... Personally I find the single best question is "what's your github username?". People who are on it and active are... well, actually I've only ever had one candidate who's actually been on github and she seemed OK. The majority of people I've seen h…

A problem with github could be that a lot of the code you write needs to be kept private for commercial reasons, and then I guess some kind of coding test would be better

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#83
post #68
post #17

It has to be a throw-away scenario and a throw-away code. Anything else is wildly unethical.

I think this is why problems that feature singly-linked lists are so popular: you can tell from the start that the problem is limited in scope and has nothing to do with any system currently in production.

Indeed.

On the other hand the interviewing company should avoid such situations too because of the information secrecy - unless they are mandating an NDA with each and every candidate.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#84

That smells a bit fishy. I think you've dodged a bullet. I have to be a bit cautious here, because our company does something similar. We have a little programming challenge that we ask candidates to submit. We don't use those submissions in production. We find it gives people with non-traditional backgrounds a chance to show their chops, and gives us some meat to discuss during an interview. The challenge probably t…

"The challenge probably takes 4-8 hours, though." The problem with that is you aren't the only one doing this and when I am job searching I am applying to many companies. So now I have 10 different companies asking for an 8 hour code test to be completed within a couple business days. Meanwhile I still have a job to hold down. It's a massive time commitment to make to just one company without knowing if the work put…

Here's my problem with pre-interview coding tests:

1. The employer is just sending the coding test as a form letter to everyone who submits a resume. I can submit the test, ace it, THEN they read my resume and decide I'm a bad fit. So I wasted my time.

I've done several coding tests where I know I aced it, and still no interview. Why am I wasting my time on this?

2. I do the test, get an interview, and now they decide I'm a "bad cultural fit".

If you're going to reject me for a flaky reason like "bad cultural fit", then you should do it BEFORE you make me waste time on a pre-interview screening test.

But as you said, the test is a useful way to filter out bad employers. If they ask me for a coding test, I don't do it, knowing I'm not missing much.

Suppose there are 5 people willing to proceed directly to a phone interview and 20 people who want me to take a 1-8 hour coding test first. As a candidate, who am I going to spend my limited job search time on?

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#85
post #25

Any programming test that takes over an hour to complete is highly suspect. If it took less than that to complete the code (you did not specify), then IMHO I can understand why they were expecting a more complete answer. Regardless, my hunch is that your instincts are right about this one.

I disagree. I think coding tests are a great way to judge candidates. But only if they are given proper weight. Nothing worse than submitting and acing a big coding challenge and then being told they don't think you're a good culture fit. Some companies employ such hiring practices and I think it is very unethical.

That's why I've soured on coding tests. After lots of employers didn't give me an interview after a coding test that a KNOW I aced, that's poisoned the well for me.

Now if someone gives me a pre-interview coding test, I mentally translate it to the employer saying "I don't respect your time."

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#86
post #85
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think coding tests are a great way to judge candidates. But only if they are given proper weight. Nothing worse than submitting and acing a big coding challenge and then being told they don't think you're a good culture fit. Some companies employ such hiring practices and I think it is very unethical.

That's why I've soured on coding tests. After lots of employers didn't give me an interview after a coding test that a KNOW I aced, that's poisoned the well for me. Now if someone gives me a pre-interview coding test, I mentally translate it to the employer saying "I don't respect your time."

Same here. I've been through the same song and dance. If something happens over and over and it results in my not getting an interview, much less the job, I'm not going to repeat it. Especially if it's time consuming.

If the company asks for a coding test, I politely decline, but I offer to provide them with a code sample instead. Very rarely has that not resulted in a phone interview and I didn't have to spend hours of my time on it[0].

[0]: per company. Write once, give to many scales better than coding tests.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#87
Let me argue in favor of coding problems. Unpaid coding problems have a couple of very appealing properties:

1) They are available to all applicants (not all applicants have github profiles, or can show previous work samples, or are available for short term contracting work).

2) They do not cause problems with typical IP agreements or extra curricular work restrictions.

3) They can be standardized so all candidates receive the same process.

4) They are a closer proxy to the "real work" of development jobs than many other alternatives (and there is lots of research that indicates this leads to better results).

Those properties are very important and cannot be found in hardly any other style of hiring filter. For this reason, its my belief that coding problems are central to a good hiring pipeline. I believe this so much that I'm willing to replace nearly every other part of the hiring pipeline with just the programming challenge (though that is a hard sell with management often).

The problem with coding problems is that it is very hard to come up with good ones. They should take less than 4 hours to solve (everyone severely underestimates how long their challenges are), they should be indicative of the kind of work you will you do, and they should be, if not fun, engaging. So normally when I encounter bad programming problems I chalk it up to that instead of malice.

It is everyones decision to not do programming challenges of course, and I completely understand people who will not do them. But to me the standardized hiring pipeline is the most important part and I'm willing to lose a few good candidates to get it. For this reason, I view a programming challenge as a good sign for a potential employer, and the lack of one to be a serious red flag.

If someone is using a coding challenge to get free work, that is at the least unethical and likely against the law depending on your jurisdiction.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#88

I haven't run into this on the interviewee end, but my company has applicants work on real projects, and here's how we deal with it: Pay them.

This rules out all manner of great employees. Basically all of them that have a job currently and have read their employment agreement.

In most places it is standard boilerplate that your employer gets approval rights on any outside work you do while employed by them. Current employees also have more restricted IP agreements typically which can put the contracting company in legal trouble as well.

For this reason, I've found paid real work projects problematic in that it biases against the currently employed.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible the German company was trying to see how you react to failing tests? I just ask because it seems like trying to get work done for free through code exercises is much more trouble than it's worth.

You would stand a good chance of waiting a lot longer to get that work done, but as mrcold said, testing a solution doesn't cost much. If you're willing to wait for the solution to a problem, getting work done through code exercises can be worth it.

Yea, I guess I was thinking more that it would take a lot of time to unnaturally break down a problem into portions small enough to pass as code exercises.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#90
post #66
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm.. how about some kind of three-way cooperation, where you get non-profits and charities to give specifications for work they need done, which can then be used for interview samples for actual industry jobs. The candidate can demonstrate their work and be assured that neither does the company extort free labour from them nor is the work they do for the bin, whereas the companies can see how they behave in real-worl…

That sounds amazing. I would love to contribute to such a project (or be interviewed using one). (Actually, would you mind if I stole this idea?)

I had a similar idea a while back... I would also be thrilled if you stole it :)
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