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Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

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Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#51
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your son, like most people who get Lyme, probably had a bulls-eye rash and/or recalled being bitten by a tick. A bulls-eye rash is enough to diagnose Lyme disease. Not only that if you start coming down with symptoms of Lyme right after getting bitten by a tick then diagnosis is very trivial. Those who don't have a bulls-eye rash or recollection of tick bites and don't spend a lot of time in the woods have non-specif…

Unfortunately, that's not the case in all areas where Lyme is prevalent. On top of that, the standard Lyme test is not very reliable. Living in New Jersey (filled with deer, mice, and ticks) you would think that doctors would be more aware. But it took several different doctors, emergency visits, hospitalizations, and, yes, a negative Lyme test before my wife was finally diagnosed. The standard reply in the hospital…

Like you said, the standard Lyme test is not very reliable. Even if laboratory tests are ordered, labs are still using immunoassays for confirmation of Lyme (ELISA, then a Western Blot), which have relatively poor sensitivity (~70% or lower[1]) due to low serum concentration of Borrelia or possible absence of antibodies—so they can miss one in four true-positive cases. The newer PCR-based assays have much better sensitivity (>70%, maybe closer to 90%[2]), but the assays are not yet in widespread use, are still being proven, and thus are seen only as adjuncts to immunoassays that can provide further evidence of Lyme. It can also take a couple weeks from when the bullseye rash appears (or when the tick bite occurs) for serology to test positive, again due to the Borrelia/antibody concentration being below the limit of detection. Samples tested are also usually blood, which may not be as good as CSF. It's a tricky bug to diagnose in the laboratory, which is why it comes down to the discretion of the clinician and the doctor's knowledge of the patient and his or her history.

1. http://www.igenex.com/files/should_know.pdf

2. Laboratory Diagnostic Testing for Borrelia burgdorferi Infection, Lyme Disease: An Evidence-based Approach: http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/resources/Halperin_2012_Chap4_Johnso...

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#52
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt they were even looking for that (if I'm really cynical, do you even trust them not to hide that?). The drug companies do not do the data for their clinical trials - a third party supervised by the FDA does. The penalty for hiding data is pretty high.

Why should I expect the FDA to be more reliable than the drug companies?

So in your hierarchy of trust the drug companies are the least trustworthy, the FDA is slightly more trustworthy and random unnamed people are the most trustworthy?

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#53
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt they were even looking for that (if I'm really cynical, do you even trust them not to hide that?). The drug companies do not do the data for their clinical trials - a third party supervised by the FDA does. The penalty for hiding data is pretty high.

Why should I expect the FDA to be more reliable than the drug companies?

You shouldn't trust any of them to begin with, but rather grade them on their accomplishments (e.g. eradication of polio). Similarly, you should also have approximately zero trust in anecdotes about unnamed people when making medical decisions.

Or so I heard from some person who I believe to be reliable. Way more reliable than the others.

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#54
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My younger sister had lyme and was nearly paralyzed before it was discovered. Both of my parents are GPs . My aunt caught Lyme when visiting us in Europe (note that the European and American versions are different), and had to visit 5 different doctors before she got her treatment. The first two thought she was just overworked. By the third time my uncle (neurosurgeon, living in Europe) suggested she had Lyme. The th…

> Lyme is very easily missed. It can manifest itself in a way that has nearly no visible symptoms, with only the patient claiming to be in enormous pain. This is absolutely true. My wife contracted lyme disease just after our son was born. It was originally written off as postpartum symptoms or postpartum depression. By the time it was diagnosed, antibiotics were not effective. She felt so awful from the antibiotics…

> switched to homeopathy

Why did she prefer homoepathic water to regular water?

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#55
post #43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similar irrational fears prompted the development of the "acellular" version of the pertussis Those fears were not in the slightest irrational. People had really really bad reactions to the regular pertussis to the point that people routinely advised new parents not to get it for their children. The the new version is not as effective, that's true, but people refused the old version, and rightly so - the side effec…

"Those fears were not in the slightest irrational. People had really really bad reactions to the regular pertussis to the point that people routinely advised new parents not to get it for their children." Simply not true. You can easily find my citations (including CDC). Please provide yours. "So what's better a vaccine that doesn't work as well, that people are willing to take? Or a vaccine that works well, but far…

> The risk from Pertussis is greater than that of DTAP by a lot

The risk from Pertussis TODAY is greater than that of DTaP.

But when aP was first introduced the risk of pertussis was LOWER than the risk of the Pertussis vaccine, for the simple reason that Pertussis was almost unheard of, but bad reactions to the Pertussis vaccine were quite common.

There's a reason they switched to aP you know, it wasn't in order to weaken the vaccine.

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#56
Lyme is a terrible disease. If not diagnosed early on, it will burrow into neural tissue and becomes very difficult to kill. Symptoms include chronic arthritis, cognitive disorders, chronic pain, dizziness, etc. It's not a disease you want to get.

I strongly believe it was a terrible mistake to remove the vaccine from the market for human use. It seems that it was taken off the market from fear of lawsuits and not because it was proven harmful.

20 years ago, few physicians knew anything about Lyme disease. Even today, physicians don't necessarily recognize Lyme symptoms, but they really ought to; 300,000 people are known to have the disease in the U.S., but it's thought that many thousands of others suffer from Lyme as well but are not diagnosed.[1]

If you diagnose it properly within the first two weeks, the chances are very good that it's completely curable with heavy treatments of antibiotics. If you don't, it becomes much harder to treat. Some have tried IV infusions of antibiotics, with varying degrees of success.

There are strategies that could be applied to greatly reduce the incidence of Lyme disease. For example, reintroduction of the Northeastern timber rattler would help cut down the mouse population which plays a large role in the deer tick's life cycle. One snake can kill dozens or hundreds of mice a year, reducing the tick population by thousands. These snakes were largely eradicated from the Northeast which has probably contributed to a rodent population boom.[2]

Culling the deer population would also greatly help. Several years ago, Monhegan Island in Maine drastically reduced the deer herds with a special hunt, and since that time there have been almost no new cases of Lyme disease reported.[3] I heard of a similar experiment in a county in Connecticut, with similar results. It came up for a vote on Long Island last year to cull the deer population but it was voted down.

Deer are beautiful animals, but their population has exploded in recent decades. In the 1940s there were thought to be about 300,000 deer in the U.S. (I've read actually that there were around 500,000 in the early 20th C., and unrestricted hunting brought that number down to 30,000 by the 1940s, so it's unclear, but drastically fewer than today in any case), and now there are estimated to be over 32 million deer.

Not just Lyme carriers, they are a menace on the roads and an estimated 200 people die every year in car-deer collisions, plus billions of dollars of damage.[4]

Increased hunting permits to reduce the deer population, reintroduction of predators such as cougars, bobcats, black bear, and wolves into their indigenous habitats in the Northeast (coyotes have been thriving and need no assistance), reintroduction of snakes like the timber rattler, and of course tremendous precautions and application of DEET when venturing into the grasslands and woods will all help to reduce Lyme disease.

I would also advocate more research grants to study the spirochete bacteria and find genetic markers needed to make more effective vaccines and treatments. This is an epidemic that people are only beginning to recognize but there are solutions to be found, if we get moving.

1. http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/humancases.html

2. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130806091815.ht...

3. http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/health-wellness/2013/07...

4. http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2012/10/24/267...

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#57

Sounds like the dog vaccine works in humans. How is dose adjusted (by weight, by surface area, etc.)? Anyone know the cost of the dog vaccine?

I've considered doing this if they are compatible- Does anyone know for sure that they are the same? I assume I just take a dose for a great dane :P

I've read that it's the exact same formulation, but you should check with a veterinarian on that.

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#58
post #55
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Those fears were not in the slightest irrational. People had really really bad reactions to the regular pertussis to the point that people routinely advised new parents not to get it for their children." Simply not true. You can easily find my citations (including CDC). Please provide yours. "So what's better a vaccine that doesn't work as well, that people are willing to take? Or a vaccine that works well, but far…

> The risk from Pertussis is greater than that of DTAP by a lot The risk from Pertussis TODAY is greater than that of DTaP. But when aP was first introduced the risk of pertussis was LOWER than the risk of the Pertussis vaccine, for the simple reason that Pertussis was almost unheard of, but bad reactions to the Pertussis vaccine were quite common. There's a reason they switched to aP you know, it wasn't in order to…

He asked for data and citation. Your claims should be easily documentable since companies did switch and presumably did so for a reason.

So, provide the citation or shut up.

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#59
post #39

FWIW, having been exposed/infected with Lyme disease 3 times, any vaccine would be welcome. Really. I can't stress that enough. Due to a variety of factors, including deer overpopulation(1), the Lyme disease infection rate in Deer Ticks in New England is ridiculously high. While I was undergoing treatment for the 3rd time, my doctor indicated that probably 25% of ticks in that region carry the disease. I'd be all for…

I'd think you'd have developed an immunity on your own?

If only it worked that way... sadly, we don't do that with Lyme, which is pretty damn hard to kill.

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. No, people who actually got the vaccine claimed they got arthritis from it. Weather those claims are true or not remains unverified. Of course the clinical trials showed no such side effects, but I doubt they were even looking for that (if I'm really cynical, do you even trust them not to h…

So if the trial was not corrupt then it must have been incompetent? The FDA and CDC investigated and did not find reason to believe that the vaccine caused arthritis, but the unnamed people who reported the arthritis are more believable than all those public servants? Come on.

> ... but the unnamed people who reported the arthritis are more believable than all those public servants?

And you can be sure that millions are going to die, not because they are stupid, but because the authorities are reluctant to crack down on the minority among their number that are corrupt.

IF one or two politicians are found to break the law, but get away on a technicality, the people will simply assume that all politicians are crooks. If a couple of scientists sell their integrity to corporate interests and the whole of the scientific community does not respond publicly and in full force, at least ruining the careers of the crooked scientist and suing the corporation for the undermining of the scientific method, people will simply assume that Science(TM) is just another racket to keep them down.

What you are seeing is a crisis of legitimacy. I agree that it is a very unfortunate event, but blaming the messenger is not going to fix it.

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