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Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

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Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#51

Post by cldellow »

theothermkn wrote: post #39
cldellow wrote: post #27

That smells a bit fishy. I think you've dodged a bullet. I have to be a bit cautious here, because our company does something similar. We have a little programming challenge that we ask candidates to submit. We don't use those submissions in production. We find it gives people with non-traditional backgrounds a chance to show their chops, and gives us some meat to discuss during an interview. The challenge probably t…

> Anecdotally, people view the paid week-long trial as demeaning, but the (unpaid) challenge as exciting and fun. We live in a bizarre world. That's because it is demeaning. It represents a large chunk of someone's life invested in proving that they're good enough for you. It's also inherently asymmetric in that the company you work for could not possibly be economically harmed by a week-long trial period, but a sing…

Perhaps I wasn't clear, the trial is an alternative path to employment if, for whatever reason, the challenge + interview isn't suitable.

If you're on the fence about us, give it a shot. If we're on the fence about you, your option is no offer or a week-long trial. As I identified elsewhere, a drawback of the trial is it's mostly only useful for people who are unemployed.

> Additionally, if the person discovers an illness during that period, do you provide health insurance?

We live in a country with reasonable health care coverage, so this isn't really a thing.

> A week-long commitment to work is a sizable tenure as a second-class citizen undergoing prolonged scrutiny.

This is my knee-jerk opinion, too. However, what is the alternative? We could hire you full-time right out of the gate...but we could still fire you after a week.

> Your company should be deeply ashamed of this practice.

Deeply ashamed might be overstating it. Contemplative and reflective, perhaps.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#52

Post by ygra »

theothermkn wrote: post #39
cldellow wrote: post #27

That smells a bit fishy. I think you've dodged a bullet. I have to be a bit cautious here, because our company does something similar. We have a little programming challenge that we ask candidates to submit. We don't use those submissions in production. We find it gives people with non-traditional backgrounds a chance to show their chops, and gives us some meat to discuss during an interview. The challenge probably t…

> Anecdotally, people view the paid week-long trial as demeaning, but the (unpaid) challenge as exciting and fun. We live in a bizarre world. That's because it is demeaning. It represents a large chunk of someone's life invested in proving that they're good enough for you. It's also inherently asymmetric in that the company you work for could not possibly be economically harmed by a week-long trial period, but a sing…

Perhaps you missed the part about paying normal rates for the person during that week?

If I'm looking for a job so desperately that I'd be financially devastated by a lost week, then I'd surely jump at a paid week of work, no?

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#53

Post by jschulenklopper »

xsace wrote: post #15
maratd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a simple solution to the problem. Paying someone for an hour or two is absolutely nothing for a healthy company. So if the company wants to have you write code to prove your mettle, have them pay you for the time.

Except you cannot do that in every country. You know, Labour right.

Well, in case labour laws prevent people being paid for some labour -- or if the applicant needs to be registered as an independent contractor in order to receive payment for the work -- can't the company just pay for the expenses (and a little extra) and thus compensate the applicant sufficiently? It should be possible to pay for travel, stay, lunch or other 'inconveniences' in case the labour/deliverables can't be paid for directly, right?

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#54

Post by RHSeeger »

ygra wrote: post #52
theothermkn wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally, people view the paid week-long trial as demeaning, but the (unpaid) challenge as exciting and fun. We live in a bizarre world. That's because it is demeaning. It represents a large chunk of someone's life invested in proving that they're good enough for you. It's also inherently asymmetric in that the company you work for could not possibly be economically harmed by a week-long trial period, but a sing…

Perhaps you missed the part about paying normal rates for the person during that week? If I'm looking for a job so desperately that I'd be financially devastated by a lost week, then I'd surely jump at a paid week of work, no?

You're not considering the situation where the candidate has a job already but is looking for a new one. Quitting your current job is a large commitment, and doing so for only a week trial period (where the odds are higher you'll be unemployed afterwords) is a pretty large risk.

That being said, for someone who is currently unemployed, putting job interviews on hold for a week is less of a risk

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#55

Post by Buttons840 »

estefan wrote: post #41
cldellow wrote: post #27

That smells a bit fishy. I think you've dodged a bullet. I have to be a bit cautious here, because our company does something similar. We have a little programming challenge that we ask candidates to submit. We don't use those submissions in production. We find it gives people with non-traditional backgrounds a chance to show their chops, and gives us some meat to discuss during an interview. The challenge probably t…

Obviously anyone really good won't actually do the tests because they'll be offered a job by somewhere that doesn't do them before they get around to yours though, sooo... Personally I find the single best question is "what's your github username?". People who are on it and active are... well, actually I've only ever had one candidate who's actually been on github and she seemed OK. The majority of people I've seen h…

I have seen this first hand. Company A told me to complete a programming test, and only then they would talk to me further. Meanwhile, Company B gave me a solid job offer and I never got back to Company A.

I don't feel too bad about ditching Company A, because they have contacted me through recruiters a few times. It's always the same story. I complete their programming challenge (which is really easy, because it's always the same), submit it, then never hear anything back, not even an acknowledgement that they received my solution.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#56

Post by at-fates-hands »

davimack wrote: post #29

After having been asked this several times, I've begun to make it clear that I will only engage in these tests if I'm compensated for the time. It's a delicate thing to do, really, telling someone that, no, you're not going to work for free, just on the hope that you might get a job. But it doesn't only happen in this industry: my niece is a graphic designer & has been asked to provide samples of her work on projects…

>>> I have the luxury of telling people that, no, I won't take their 1) IQ test, 2) Personality Test, or 3) their Coding Challenges. Not everybody does, certainly.

I agree with this 100% and do the same thing.

If you need something that measures my ability, then go to my github page and go over the copious amounts of projects I have there and determine if my skill level is what you need for your company.

I had one interview where I had sent over a link to my github page. As soon as I sat down, I was given a large packet (it was about 20 pages) and asked to look at the code and figure out the bugs. Most of these were in Java and .Net. I reiterated I didn't work with either language and they told me to "just look at the examples and give it a try." I asked them if they had looked at my github page and reminded them I'm a front end developer. After they said, "Uhhh no, we didn't look at your examples." I stood up and told them, "Thank you gentlemen, but this interview is over. Thanks for wasting my time." and walked out.

I've also turned down "code challenges" that would eat up a week or so of my time. I've got a myriad of recruiters calling me for gigs, why would I waste a week working for free on your "code challenge"? I guess I'm at a point in my career where my work can speak for itself. I don't need to jump through a bunch of hoops to prove my abilities anymore.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#57

Post by hdra »

estefan wrote: post #41
cldellow wrote: post #27

That smells a bit fishy. I think you've dodged a bullet. I have to be a bit cautious here, because our company does something similar. We have a little programming challenge that we ask candidates to submit. We don't use those submissions in production. We find it gives people with non-traditional backgrounds a chance to show their chops, and gives us some meat to discuss during an interview. The challenge probably t…

Obviously anyone really good won't actually do the tests because they'll be offered a job by somewhere that doesn't do them before they get around to yours though, sooo... Personally I find the single best question is "what's your github username?". People who are on it and active are... well, actually I've only ever had one candidate who's actually been on github and she seemed OK. The majority of people I've seen h…

I'm curious, how does companies usually evaluate a github profile? and how important is that evaluation to the decision?

I ask this because I find many of the software engineers I follow on Twitter who work at major tech companies (github, twitter, google, etc) have a pretty sparse github profile.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#58

Post by RogerL »

OpenDrapery wrote: post #34
davimack wrote: post #29

After having been asked this several times, I've begun to make it clear that I will only engage in these tests if I'm compensated for the time. It's a delicate thing to do, really, telling someone that, no, you're not going to work for free, just on the hope that you might get a job. But it doesn't only happen in this industry: my niece is a graphic designer & has been asked to provide samples of her work on projects…

Curious. What is your objection to the personality tests? I took one for a new job once, and I felt uneasy about it, but can't really articulate why.

I don't know what one you took, but the one I was told to take (and vociferously declined) was somebody's unscientific hack of the MMBI. You know, the test that tests for mental illness. No one's business. Sorry, you don't get to know how many friends I have (a question), if I have nagging doubts (a question), and so on. It doesn't matter if those are problem spots for me or not, it is the principle.

Also, that HR person is not a trained doctor. They have no business administering any kind of test of this type, and certainly have no business trying to interpret the results. It is just woo nonsense. Might as well try to do handwriting analysis, or read my tea leaves.

You are not allowed (in the states) to ask interview questions about health. Yet, somehow, the courts have found these 'personality' tests legal. I don't understand, but I will not participate. I don't take drugs, but I won't take a pee test either.*

* these results might vary depending on how close I am to foreclosure and how low my saving are. Principles are costly.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#59

Post by estefan »

cldellow wrote: post #49
estefan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously anyone really good won't actually do the tests because they'll be offered a job by somewhere that doesn't do them before they get around to yours though, sooo... Personally I find the single best question is "what's your github username?". People who are on it and active are... well, actually I've only ever had one candidate who's actually been on github and she seemed OK. The majority of people I've seen h…

We'll definitely consider a GitHub account as well, but we don't want to exclude the universe of programmers who are Just Busy Doing Their Dayjob And Having a Life and don't have time to maintain a ton of open source forks.

Yeah there are definitely degrees of "active", but even one or two forks, or even submitting an issue to an active project demonstrate engagement that says a lot about someone.

Re: Ask HN: A coding test or working for free?

#60

Post by k__ »

overgard wrote: post #11

Honest question: is tricking coders into doing work for free a thing that actually happens? I'm not saying it doesn't, I've just never heard of it. From their end, if that was a thing they regularly did, it would be such a hassle. After all, you'd have to find a new person to do that work every time, find a way to split up the work into very small chunks, and who knows if the result from a person off the street would…

Most of the time I faced only absurd coding challenges that yielded stuff the companies couldn't use for anything.

I still paid it with my time.

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