Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that one shouldn't ascribe to malice what can be ascribed to incompetence. ("The Solicitor General does not understand...") BUT! At the White House level, incompetence equals malice. We have every right to expect competence from a level as high as the White House.
The SG is a subcabinet Justice Department official, not part of the Executive Office of the President (White House).
Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
91–100 of 131 posts
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
If they are done by copying someone elses work without permission then by copyright infringement. If done by implementing a standard or through a license etc. then no harm is done. Do you think that I should be allowed to steal the declaring code of someone elses proprietary solution and pawn of as my own?
So yes, you're saying that Microsoft should sue Wine developers because they stole the API
Wine is also something done explicitly to create compatability, Google made sure Android was not compatible with "regular" Java.
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neither one of those is substantial enough for copyright. They should be considered in the context of a whole body of work. Using books as an analogy, an API most closely resembles chapters and headings. Is it copyright infringement to write a new book that follows the same outline as a previous book? (I don't know...)
Not only do APIs resemble the chapters and headings of a book, they aslo include the contract that the content under those headings have exactly the same behaviour. Google didn't just copy the "heading" java.lang.Math.max() they also copied the contract that calling this method should always return the bigger of the two arguments. Ergo, the "content" under the heading is the same, or rather the any differance between…
Irrelevant, the contract is not part of the trial
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#94Welp, IT industry had a good run. Time to wrap it up and hand it over to a couple of companies to run as a monopoly.
Yeah, I don't understand why this is a relatively minor story. This should be filling the front page of HN, on par with Jobs's death. If this ruling goes the wrong way, it will end software development as we know it, especially given the ridiculous length of copyright. Any reimplementation of an API? Illegal. IBM compatible PCs? Illegal. Any emulator? Illegal. Binary-compatible reimplementations? Illegal.
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's profoundly important to the U.S. as a whole. Creation of IP is the last thing that's going to be automated by robots. It's already been tremendously resistant to production being exported to China and India. We're already at the point where the primary product of the U.S. is IP in various forms (Apple designs the computers but they're manufactured in China).
What do you mean by "IP"? If it's "intellectual property" that strikes me (a non-lawyer) as a particularly vague and ill-defined concept. I personally find the idea of owning an idea to be risible: historically, important things have been invented or discovered multiple times, sometimes clearly independently. So, why should I as a citizen finance some monopolies that will be economically detrimental to me and to soci…
The traditional reason is to grant incentive for its creation in the first place. One primary example has been medical advances. With the benefit of a (temporary) monopoly on the sales of a new drug, the company has an incentive to create it in the first place. Perhaps we wouldn't have as many life saving advances without IP protection. A secondary reason is that it requires public disclosure. One alternative to patent protection is to keep a production method a trade secret. So companies, if they are sufficiently secretive, could have effective if not legally enforced monopolies due to such secrets. So is it worth the tradeoff of having IP protection?
COST: a time-limited monopoly; limited incremental innovation on derivatives of the protected work during the lifetime of the protection.
BENEFIT: potentially more innovative goods and services are created to begin with; the means and methods behind these innovations are publicly documented for future replication or derivative work .
I'm think it is worth the tradeoff both for copyright protection and patents in general. But the specific laws are certainly not optimal as currently written and enforced by the courts. Durations for both patents and copyright are too long. Plenty of things that are patentable should not be, due to them being too obvious, trivial, or just not appropriate for protection.
Also the remedy for infringement has multiple options. You could allow general infringement, at statutory royalty rates. I think Canada has experimented with this for copyright, and the US as standard (but private) arrangements for the licensing of music. You could require a fraction of any profits. These provide the monopoly rents, but not a monopolization of production and derivatives. We are still learning what the optimal tradeoffs are for society. I hope we have more experimentation on regulatory regimes to identify the best compromises.
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neither one of those is substantial enough for copyright. They should be considered in the context of a whole body of work. Using books as an analogy, an API most closely resembles chapters and headings. Is it copyright infringement to write a new book that follows the same outline as a previous book? (I don't know...)
Not only do APIs resemble the chapters and headings of a book, they aslo include the contract that the content under those headings have exactly the same behaviour. Google didn't just copy the "heading" java.lang.Math.max() they also copied the contract that calling this method should always return the bigger of the two arguments. Ergo, the "content" under the heading is the same, or rather the any differance between…
If any language has a function max that takes two integer values and doesn't return bigger, that language isn't worth bothering.
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neither one of those is substantial enough for copyright. They should be considered in the context of a whole body of work. Using books as an analogy, an API most closely resembles chapters and headings. Is it copyright infringement to write a new book that follows the same outline as a previous book? (I don't know...)
Not only do APIs resemble the chapters and headings of a book, they aslo include the contract that the content under those headings have exactly the same behaviour. Google didn't just copy the "heading" java.lang.Math.max() they also copied the contract that calling this method should always return the bigger of the two arguments. Ergo, the "content" under the heading is the same, or rather the any differance between…
And as any (competent) programmer knows, the "interface" in "code against interfaces not implementations" is merely a homonym of the "interface" in "application programming interface".
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe the CAFC decision is not binding precedent for any court. If P sues D in the 9th circuit over copyright, even if there are patent claims as well (such that an appeal on a copyright issue would necessarily go to the CAFC), the CAFC decision in Oracle v. Google is not binding precedent. Of course that does not mean that the district court would be likely to ignore the CAFC decision in Oracle v. Google, but in…
On that last part, so CAFC gets the case if it included patent claims, even if neither party is appealing any of the patent issues? That raises the possibility of copyright plaintiffs tossing in a patent claim that they have no intention of trying to actually win on, just to make sure that they will get CAFC's view of copyright instead of the 9th Circuit's view.
The CAFC itself would be bound to apply 9th Circuit precedent, as it purported to do here. Again in principle, a prior copyright decision by the CAFC applying 9th Circuit law would not be binding precedent on a CAFC panel hearing some later copyright case arising out of the 9th Circuit.
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#99Is the logical extension of this that anyone who's written a standard C library was in violation of Kernighan & Ritchie's copyright?
"anyone who's written a standard C library was in violation of Kernighan & Ritchie's copyright" K&R and Ken Thompson et al. were working for Bell Labs and assigned copyright to AT&T. AT&T cooperated with early open source programmers at Cal to produce UNIX software. The negotiations between Cal and AT&T produced a license from AT&T for UNIX and C as embodied in Berkeley UNIX. Berkeley BSD grants a license to anyone i…
Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
So yes, you're saying that Microsoft should sue Wine developers because they stole the API
Why should they? Microsoft has nothing to gain from doing so and reverse engineering interfaces or implementing them under fair use is already allowed. Wine is also something done explicitly to create compatability, Google made sure Android was not compatible with "regular" Java.
Tell us what can benefit Oracle by suing Google.
> Wine is also something done explicitly to create compatability, Google made sure Android was not compatible with "regular" Java.
Android is compatible with Java syntax. And even Java ME, the java developed for mobile platforms, is not compatible with regular java so, what is your point?