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Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

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Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#11

Post by michaelvkpdx »

colechristensen wrote: post #10
meesterdude wrote: post #5

> and likened the Java API’s to Charles Dickens and other literary works Never, could have I ever predicted to one day see that as an actual excerpt from an article. By the way, this is a wonderful exercise of effort on our part as a society. Really very important we sort these these nuances out. People may be dying, the poor may be getting poorer, but this is what is important. /s

>By the way, this is a wonderful exercise of effort on our part as a society. Really very important we sort these these nuances out. People may be dying, the poor may be getting poorer, but this is what is important. /s It's sarcastic, I get it, but it is also profoundly stupid. Sorting out intellectual property and ownership is _the_ 21st century problem as we continually move away from the importance of physical ob…

Try eating "pure information". Or building shelter out of it.

I hope this drags on forever. It's fun watching pigs in mud, aka lawyers in the Valley.

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#12

Post by tajen »

gpvos wrote: post #3
shmerl wrote: post #2

European courts declared APIs to be uncopyrightable.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US tried to sneak copyright for APIs back in through "trade" agreements like TTIP.

... and API copyright would give an excellent commercial advantage to US companies over Europe, since they have more startups than we have. On the other hand, my government (France) doesn't do much to help startups [1][2], so it's only fair that we get invaded by talented foreign companies.

[1] For €1000 sold to a customer, the employee gets a purchasing power of less than €300, even in the absence of expenses and stakeholder dividends, because our VAT is 20%, mandatory contributions 46%, income tax 10-15%, land tax 5-10%, and laws are so circumvoluted that the tax accountant takes 45€ per paysheet per employee and charge about 2000€ yearly to the company. And the founder gets to spend >10% of his time on the phone with administrations or filling forms. I know the IRS of USA isn't much better, but I've lived in Australia and administrations make a difference on CEO time.

[2] I'm aware of that the French government provides benefits for startups like CRI (Crédit Impot Recherche), which basically funds the PhDs you hire, but it wastes paperwork pumping money from companies into companies, requires a person to manage the grant, and isn't socially fair since it advantages those with a PhD.

I could always blame TTIP agreements for advantaging Americans, but we, French people, tackle down our own companies on a massive scale.

French people, please don't answer "Hey man the CCI can help you for your paperwork if you fill in this form and post it to this address and fill the file they return and the RSI will take a levy of 0,015% for training (truth) and ... form ... and ... paper ... document... and... minitax... organisme social... excess... deductible for SMEs if you tick the box 5UV and ..." Please. I just wanted to hire and code, and the Australian PAYG paysheet is frigging awesome.

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#13

Post by iSnow »

colechristensen wrote: post #10
meesterdude wrote: post #5

> and likened the Java API’s to Charles Dickens and other literary works Never, could have I ever predicted to one day see that as an actual excerpt from an article. By the way, this is a wonderful exercise of effort on our part as a society. Really very important we sort these these nuances out. People may be dying, the poor may be getting poorer, but this is what is important. /s

>By the way, this is a wonderful exercise of effort on our part as a society. Really very important we sort these these nuances out. People may be dying, the poor may be getting poorer, but this is what is important. /s It's sarcastic, I get it, but it is also profoundly stupid. Sorting out intellectual property and ownership is _the_ 21st century problem as we continually move away from the importance of physical ob…

>Sorting out intellectual property and ownership is _the_ 21st century problem

Uhm, no. Only for the HN crowd and maybe open source.

There are a lot more and more pressing problems that have to do with things like the environment, food production, reproduction, migration and democracy vs. corporatism vs. ideology.

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#14

Post by markvdb »

badlogic wrote: post #4

This advise by the Solicitor General hinges on an interpretation of section 102(b) of the copyright act. That section essentially says that "methods of operation" can't be copyrighted. The Solicitor General does not understand that APIs are a formalized description of "methods of operation" (page 14). I suggest reading the entire advisory, it's quite frustrating and contradicts itself.

I agree that one shouldn't ascribe to malice what can be ascribed to incompetence. ("The Solicitor General does not understand...")

BUT!

At the White House level, incompetence equals malice. We have every right to expect competence from a level as high as the White House.

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#15

Post by mattlutze »

iSnow wrote: post #13
colechristensen wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>By the way, this is a wonderful exercise of effort on our part as a society. Really very important we sort these these nuances out. People may be dying, the poor may be getting poorer, but this is what is important. /s It's sarcastic, I get it, but it is also profoundly stupid. Sorting out intellectual property and ownership is _the_ 21st century problem as we continually move away from the importance of physical ob…

>Sorting out intellectual property and ownership is _the_ 21st century problem Uhm, no. Only for the HN crowd and maybe open source. There are a lot more and more pressing problems that have to do with things like the environment, food production, reproduction, migration and democracy vs. corporatism vs. ideology.

As we move away from jobs-as-sustenance and toward a new social model where sustenance and income come from a broader range of sources that do not so directly correlate to your time spent working... the respect for and ownership of intellectual property may very well be a central tenant to life in modern society.

It's not just about lawyers and multinationals dukeing it out.

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#17

Post by carussell »

tajen wrote: post #6

What happened of Judge Aslop [1]? As a foreigner, he's the only ever positive story I have heard about the American judicial system, since he was in charge of the Google vs Oracle trial, and he reproduced code himself to understand what was so unique about it. In fact, he decided there was only way to code some things, and ruled that the very small method everyone was arguing against can't be patented/copyrighted. An…

> So do this contradict his ruling?

Yes. As mentioned in the linked article, the Federal Circuit court overturned Alsup's ruling. The Alsup ruling came from a district court, and the Federal Circuit has the authority to overturn it. From there, the question can go on to the US Supreme Court.

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#18

Post by markvdb »

tajen wrote: post #12
gpvos wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US tried to sneak copyright for APIs back in through "trade" agreements like TTIP.

... and API copyright would give an excellent commercial advantage to US companies over Europe, since they have more startups than we have. On the other hand, my government (France) doesn't do much to help startups [1][2], so it's only fair that we get invaded by talented foreign companies. [1] For €1000 sold to a customer, the employee gets a purchasing power of less than €300, even in the absence of expenses and st…

Well, you could always emigrate to Belgium: 33.99% corporate income tax, 37.84% social security contributions, 53.5% personal income tax most labour income above a cleaner's wage, 21% VAT, 10% real estate sales tax, 25% dividend tax, spectacular inheritance tax, combined with far too complex rules and regulations.

That's for your regular, main job. Side job income is burdened with taxes and rules more heavily...

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#19

Post by rtpg »

tajen wrote: post #12
gpvos wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US tried to sneak copyright for APIs back in through "trade" agreements like TTIP.

... and API copyright would give an excellent commercial advantage to US companies over Europe, since they have more startups than we have. On the other hand, my government (France) doesn't do much to help startups [1][2], so it's only fair that we get invaded by talented foreign companies. [1] For €1000 sold to a customer, the employee gets a purchasing power of less than €300, even in the absence of expenses and st…

Where is your 46% coming from? Also, you might grossly underestimate how much of an absolute mess American taxes are to deal with. If you're complaining about paying your accountant 2000 euros a year...

Re: Let Oracle own API's, Justice Dept tells top court in surprise filing

#20

Post by colechristensen »

iSnow wrote: post #13
colechristensen wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>By the way, this is a wonderful exercise of effort on our part as a society. Really very important we sort these these nuances out. People may be dying, the poor may be getting poorer, but this is what is important. /s It's sarcastic, I get it, but it is also profoundly stupid. Sorting out intellectual property and ownership is _the_ 21st century problem as we continually move away from the importance of physical ob…

>Sorting out intellectual property and ownership is _the_ 21st century problem Uhm, no. Only for the HN crowd and maybe open source. There are a lot more and more pressing problems that have to do with things like the environment, food production, reproduction, migration and democracy vs. corporatism vs. ideology.

Which of those problems do you think doesn't already have a solution? If not, which of those do you think isn't a perpetual problem which has been around in some form or another since the dawn of human civilization?

Reorganizing the world's economy away from physical works to intellectual ones is an entirely new problem and will be on the scale of the industrial revolution.

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