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Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

quirksmode.org

471–480 of 515 posts

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#471
post #43

The web works best as a document platform. All the UI tricks that web developers work on all end up managing something related to just browsing/reading a document. It's amazing that modern browsers/HTML just don't have this basic user experience down. Why is it virtually impossible to read long articles on a web browser? After 25 years, why do web designers need to create their own page transition mechanics for long-…

Don't forget that you can specify related pages as and let the browser handle pagination. I recall when I used Opera, you could scroll down, hit space, and it would go to the next page as long as the website provided that information (forum softwares often do.)

How much have browsers invested in their pagination solution, though? If I specify that tag on my pages, does that mean users who visit my site will have an awesome experience when it comes to pagination?

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#472
Giving up on the Web, is:

1) blind to all the progress we've made closing the gap with all the other platforms

2) Irresponsible to the future by basically saying "let's drop the only open and common platform we have and let's embrace the corporate fragmented world, let's relive the 80s all over again just because of some short term performance issue!"

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After 25 years, why do web designers need to create their own page transition mechanics for long-form articles Why do you need page transitions for articles at all? The only reason I can think of is for more ad displays. Ok, if you have, say, a long manual with multiple chapters that would be several hundred pages when printed it can be nice to break it up, but that's probably not what you meant. > photo galleries…

Have you tried to disable pagination in reading apps like iBooks or Instapaper? Long articles and books are more comfortable to read if they are paginated: one small tap, one pageful of new stuff. Far more convenient and less prone to losing your place than scrolling.

Not only do I disagree, I would argue its subjective. I much prefer one long article instead of paginated articles and will regularly refuse to continue past the first page on principal.

You may like pagination but I do not, and I would argue its better suited as an option, not dictated by the author.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#474
As a user, my policy is simple. Unless there is functionality in the app that I want to use that requires direct OS access, the app doesn't get installed, period.

I care about my privacy and I won't install your app just to get a slightly snappier experience or because you didn't want to make a web version.

There's way to many "apps" that don't deserve to be anything more than a website and I take a hard line when it cones to my privacy.

Ask yourself if this can be done in a website. If the answer is yes, then why aren't you?

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

URLs are opaque strings to the typical user.

My point was that the typical user would be better served with a native app that turns that URL into less-opaque data. And even with the URL alone, that's still significantly less opaque than YouTube's current method of https://youtube.com/$some_random_gibberish . At least someone could see something like https://mytube.com/j_random_hacker/how_to_computer.mp4 and guess that "j_random_hacker" is a username and "how_to…

> a native app that turns that URL into less-opaque data.

Like a web browser?

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#477
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with PPK, but sorry to say this: you are just throwing garbage. > There's nothing more annoying to a mobile user than an "app" that takes 10 seconds to start up Try this on your mobile browser http://hn.premii.com/ Now download this. Android : https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.premii.hn Or iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hacker-news-yc/id713733435 And play with it. Download top 5 native H…

As a user of Android HN apps, premii seems to beat them in all aspects. The major aspect being them actually working properly. It seems like apps are less maintainable. Right now pretty much all of the Android HN apps are broken in some way, or missing a core feature of the desktop experience.

App requires more work to maintain. its much easier to update website. App requires a build, submission, approval etc.

I have not updated my downloaded app in long time.

For HN, official APIs are very limited.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say "initially"; Flash is still notorious for severe performance issues. That said, so are most native media players nowadays. With that said, I'd be more optimistic of a kind of "media plugin renaissance" like what's being discussed in this day and age than I would be back in the 90's, what with all the insistence on standards-compliance and all that jazz. Eventually, with platforms like the .NET CLR / Mo…

I'm a bit less optimistic. Having different programs for each content type would restrict the developers' control into how they can interact with the users. Simple playback of video? Not so bad. But if you want to swap the source of the video to your 240p version if the video is buffering 'too slowly'? YouTube-like annotations? Show suggested videos after? Developers aren't going to want to support all environment co…

> But if you want to swap the source of the video to your 240p version if the video is buffering 'too slowly'?

This sounds like something that should be a feature of the protocol used for streaming (in fact, I'd be surprised if most streaming protocols didn't support such functionality). Even without, this should be possible to do even with a native media player, and many streaming providers offer streams with different bitrates and encodings and such (for an example, check out soma.fm).

> YouTube-like annotations?

Most video players have subtitle and even captioning support; it shouldn't be hard to extend this to arbitrary annotations, be it as part of the streaming protocol, part of the media encoding, or even as a separate stream or file.

> Show suggested videos after?

Could be hypothetically done with an API call on the player's part to the video source (or some other source that indexes videos), which then provides the list. The player could then display said suggestions.

All three of these things could be worked around with a standard "metadata" path that such a video player would access and fetch an HTML page or JSON/XML document or somesuch.

> Developers aren't going to want to support all environment configurations

Nor should they; they should instead support agreed-upon standards, like how web browsers support agreed-upon standards for HTML/CSS/Javascript files and HTTP(S) 1.x/2.0. I don't use separate web browsers for different websites, after all.

> Additionally, there's a lot of great research going into browser sandboxing and user-driven permission granting. Allowing content-compatible-but-unsandboxed XYZPlayer to take over content playback negates a lot of the potential benefits.

Part of the issue is that operating-system-level sandboxing has historically been insufficient. Bringing some modern server-grade sandboxing techniques (containers, VMs, chroots, etc.) to the desktop and mobile realms in an easy-to-use manner would alleviate the need for browsers to try and implement this themselves.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that the typical user would be better served with a native app that turns that URL into less-opaque data. And even with the URL alone, that's still significantly less opaque than YouTube's current method of https://youtube.com/$some_random_gibberish . At least someone could see something like https://mytube.com/j_random_hacker/how_to_computer.mp4 and guess that "j_random_hacker" is a username and "how_to…

> a native app that turns that URL into less-opaque data. Like a web browser?

More like any application that interfaces with a JSON-based API. Those API calls work by talking to a server over HTTP(S) and requesting something from a URL.

There's no reason why a native app can't do this - in fact, many native apps for things like YouTube and Pandora and such already do this.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. And you're also made out of meat and will die soon. And we're living on a planet that is in the long term doomed even if we half-evolved, tool-using monkeys get our shit together. (Did you know that we're half-way through the lifespan of forests ? [1] That one day the conditions just won't be right for them anymore? That never fails to sadden me.) But the interesting thing to me is what happens when we move pas…

He didn't say all technology is diseased. He was talking about the web. Writing native applications is still as fun as it has always been. Not that there isn't disease there too, but it isn't scripted and marked up to hell like the technostew that is the current web, which is what the parent was describing.

So you think burnt out native app developers can't produce similar rants?
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