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Why do people waste so much time at work?

bbc.co.uk

151–160 of 230 posts

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#151

"We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because…

To be honest, people pay me to do a job, but I am a fraud. I don't work for a living. Somewhere on a piece of paper my name is printed and it says that I will receive a sum of money each month in exchange for some effort at programming computers or some such thing, but I never really pay attention to it.

I program computers all day. It is quite an enjoyable pastime and I look forward to it almost all the time. Although it would seem like it is better to selfishly work on my own personal projects all the time, I have found that if I do things that other people like, it makes them very happy. I really enjoy making other people happy. It is fun.

I have not always thought this way. At one time in my life, I tried to limit the amount of things that I did for other people. I wanted to make sure that I always prioritised my goals above theirs. I would feel resentful if I were forced, through the circumstances of living, to do things that were not of my choosing. I demanded compensation. No matter how much compensation I received, though, it never seemed enough. Let's face it, I was giving up my time -- my life -- to further goals that were not my own. How much money should I receive to give up my life? I have never been able to answer that question.

I suppose there must have been a day where I changed. If there was, I can't recall it. Whatever happened, I started to realize that I was enjoying what I was doing. Not all of it, of course, but at least some of it. I went to my boss and I said, "If you have more things like this, can you please let me do it?" He was quite pleased to hear my question and readily agreed. Over time, I asked for more and more things that I enjoyed and my boss gave me more and more of those things. Eventually, virtually everything I was doing were things that I enjoyed.

There have been times where I was stuck in situations that I didn't enjoy. Most of the time it is because I lacked some skill to do a task, or because I lacked the ability to interact gracefully with certain people. These are big challenges for me. I enjoy challenges and I push myself to see if I can overcome them. Some days I give up and sleep, or play video games or cry. The next day I am usually ready to try again. I have crossed some big mountains this way and it is something that makes me very proud.

It has happened to me that I have found myself in situations where I just could not cope with what was going on. In those cases, I have simply gone somewhere else. I'm lucky because I live in a rich and free society where I can do what I please. I admit that I fully utilise this freedom and feel sad for others that can not do as I can do. Sometimes I feel a bit guilty, but should a seed planted in rich soil struggle because other seeds are not so lucky? I think there is no point in making life any harder than it already is. I will take my luck wherever I can get it.

In this way I have found that I can align myself so that people pay me and I do not work. I'm not saying it's easy. It has taken me decades to work out how to do it for myself. I just think that it isn't as hard as many people think it might be.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#152
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

I support the idea of a basic income, but only if it is a replacement for the system of piecemeal welfare programs and tax-breaks that we currently have. The entire system could get so much simpler than it currently is. You get your basic income check for X dollars a month. If you work a job, run a business, whatever, in addition to that, you get taxed Y% on your earnings, excluding the basic income amount. No deduct…

You are going to have issue with telling the basic incomers in more expensive places (like cities) that they have to move or else you are going to have to adjust basic income by cost of living.

The former is politically very dangerous (more so than BI already is) while the later is going to quickly add complication to the issue that you are trying to simplify.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#153
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support the idea of a basic income, but only if it is a replacement for the system of piecemeal welfare programs and tax-breaks that we currently have. The entire system could get so much simpler than it currently is. You get your basic income check for X dollars a month. If you work a job, run a business, whatever, in addition to that, you get taxed Y% on your earnings, excluding the basic income amount. No deduct…

Of course some people need more than just basic income to survive - if your medical expenses are 10x basic income, and you cut out all other welfare, how are those people meant to compensate? There are some kinds of welfare that you can replace with basic income, but not all of them.

It is better to offer free health care that is paid via taxes/lower BI because it is cheaper to a society at large if people get regular checkups and fix problems earlier instead of waiting until the problem can no longer be ignored.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

There was nothing "socialist" about Jamestown. Many of the initial settlers were aristocrats who had no experience of work, and no interest in it. Unsurprisingly this didn't end well. >If we create a culture that tells people they don't have to work to receive those benefits, it will disicentivize people to actually work. We already have a culture like this. Those who believe they own an entirely imaginary thing call…

Has socialism worked anywhere? I think it would take a rewriting of people's expectations to have any chances. When you have many in society having the belief they are entitled to nearly anything, when they are told so over and over its their right, how can they ever function in a truly socialist system

The reason such a system fails is that you cannot exclude those who won't participate but instead just want to take

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laziness is just another word for having your priorities in order.

I know you're probably saying it tongue-in-cheek, but not really. I'm a fairly lazy person; it bothers me to no end. I wish I could do more work more reliably, but I can't (yet! growth mindset). A degree of laziness might look like having your priorities in order, but they're not really the same thing

There is laziness and there is procrastination. Leaving that soda bottle on the floor is procrastinating picking it up; I'll still have to do it later. Having a small box to fill with soda bottles that I dump once every few weeks is laziness. Not making my bed when I'll have guest over or I need to make it before going to bed is procrastination. Not making it because there is no reason for it to be made before I get back into it is laziness (of course there are suprise visitors and such, but that is just cases where hueristical optimizations are imperfect).

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#156

"We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because…

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

It's funny the people championing 'incentives for work', thereby turning 'redistribution of wealth' into some kind of mortal sin, simultaneously brand inheritance (redistribution of wealth by bloodright/nepotism) as a 'death tax' and act as if it's the worst thing ever.

I'd be a lot more inclined to be a bigger proponent for incentive based economies if we all started on a level playing field with equal opportunity. The reality is far from it, and we get phenomena like the working poor, millions of people with jobs, sometimes multiple, who can barely scrape by, in the same economy where others are born literally a millionaire without any basis in merit.

Obviously there has to be a balance in incentives, but I'm inclined to say the US has lost some sense of that balance.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#157
post #5

Because if they got their job done and left they would be fired. If they got their job done, they would be given more work. So one takes the maximal amount of time to do a task given the requirement that they be in the office for 8+ hrs a day.

Yep this exactly. Do you want to do 10x more work for the exact same amount of pay or do you want to stretch out the work by a half hour here and there, get it done but at a good relaxed pace when your creativity can be brought to full bear on the tasks?

Parkinson's Law, which was a sarcastic joke about bureaucracy, only really happens when employees are not engaged in their work or they're forced to be in the same spot for 8+ hours a day. I have 10 things to do within 2 week "sprints". Should I get everything done in a first week (maybe work a few hours on the weekend if need be) and then be tasked with more tasks and not get rewarded for this at all? Or should I just do 5 things the first week and have fun on the weekend and then finish the other 5 things later?

This is why hourly pay and salaries are crap. You aren't getting paid for value; you're getting paid to sit in a chair (even if you work remotely) and you're getting paid so that the competition doesn't hire you away.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#158
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support the idea of a basic income, but only if it is a replacement for the system of piecemeal welfare programs and tax-breaks that we currently have. The entire system could get so much simpler than it currently is. You get your basic income check for X dollars a month. If you work a job, run a business, whatever, in addition to that, you get taxed Y% on your earnings, excluding the basic income amount. No deduct…

I'd suggest replacing an income tax with a sales tax though. One 'punishes' earning, the other 'punishes' spending. Additionally you simplify enforcement by narrowing the collection points considerably. Talk about simple, you don't ever files taxes as an individual. That mixed with basic income is a good plan from my non-economist POV. I've sure someone far smarter that I can explain why I'm amazingly naïve.

> I've sure someone far smarter that I can explain why I'm amazingly naïve.

I actually like your plan a lot, but it's worth knowing the weak points of any plan.

> Additionally you simplify enforcement by narrowing the collection points considerably.

That's one weak point. As long as there's big money involved, there will be incentives to minimize, cajole, hide, smuggle, etc. For example, the tax burden for cigarettes is already rather high, so there's a market for legal (Native American smoke shops), quasi-legal (online ordering), and illegal (selling loose cigarettes on the street) cigarette sales to get the "tax free" discount.

Extrapolate that to taxes on all goods and you see burgeoning black and grey markets and the organized crime that goes along with them.

...and there will be incentives for fraud with the basic income reporting as well.

There may be less regulation and enforcement overall, but it won't disappear by any means, especially given enough time for fraudsters to become more sophisticated.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

It's funny the people championing 'incentives for work', thereby turning 'redistribution of wealth' into some kind of mortal sin, simultaneously brand inheritance (redistribution of wealth by bloodright/nepotism) as a 'death tax' and act as if it's the worst thing ever. I'd be a lot more inclined to be a bigger proponent for incentive based economies if we all started on a level playing field with equal opportunity.…

> It's funny the people championing 'incentives for work', thereby turning 'redistribution of wealth' into some kind of mortal sin, simultaneously brand inheritance (redistribution of wealth by bloodright/nepotism) as a 'death tax' and act as if it's the worst thing ever.

I think you're conflating two ideas. Redistribution of wealth, in my understanding, means taking from Peter to pay Paul regardless of what Paul did. Inheritance on the other hand is Peter accumulated value (money) but decided to save it or invest it rather than outright spend it and gifted it forward.

The difference between the two is the level of coercion. In the former, the government is deciding who gets what from whom and how much in a roundabout way. In the latter, the individual who accumulated the value is deciding whom gets what and how much.

> in the same economy where others are born literally a millionaire without any basis in merit.

If the millionaires wish to remain millionaires, the money cannot be idle. It has to be invested in value producing activities that generate a return. If they just spend it, they won't be millionaires for long (see NFL stars going broke right after they get out of the league for an example).

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Communication about what needs doing i.e. Lack of leadership

Partly. But there is usually no method of discovery either. In a software company there is an issue tracker and you can just go and fix bugs if nothing else, that doesnt exist in a traditional company.

Sure but that's daily grind boring stuff that doesn't improve your skills very much and doesn't instill confidence in the long-term future of the company.

That's essentially lack of leadership.

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