Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#1

Post by robin_reala » Tue, May 26, 2015, 10:39 AM UTC

Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat
quirksmode.org

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#2

Post by hmans » Tue, May 26, 2015, 10:53 AM UTC

Ok

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#3

Post by nailer » Tue, May 26, 2015, 10:56 AM UTC

The headline is a little misleading: the article isn't about not using web technologies in favour of native apps - Instagram, for example, uses HTML5 for most of it's UI (you used to be able to see the error pages) and has great UX - but rather a call to stop making 'native app like web sites'.

> Our working assumption has been that all web sites should be app-like, and therefore tooled up to the hilt.

I don't think that's true. Some people create horrible scroll jacking functionality for whatever reason - maybe they thought it was more 'native app like', maybe they just thought it was clever. But many other web developers already consider that bad perf is bad perf and aren't willing to put up with it.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#4

Post by datashovel » Tue, May 26, 2015, 10:58 AM UTC

This post leads me to believe the author probably assumes there will always only be a handful of native platforms. I think, if we're lucky, the ecosystem will be far more diverse.

In the future I envision, noone in their right mind would ever think native is the way to go.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#5

Post by onion2k » Tue, May 26, 2015, 11:03 AM UTC

Unless you're making something that needs really good performance (3D gaming for example) building a hybrid app wins every time. Something based on Cordova (eg PhoneGap, Ionic) with Crosswalk can get you to about 90% of the performance of a native app, with about 1/2 of the development time because it's all built with web technology. 90% is easily good enough for most applications. Cordova wraps a uiWebView in some boilerplate to make a web app effectively native to give you the 'icon on the homescreen' advantages (selling the app, in-app purchases, access to most phone APIs) with all the benefits of building for the web (easy development, lots of developers, etc).

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#6

Post by Navarr » Tue, May 26, 2015, 11:04 AM UTC

> Native apps talk directly to the operating system, while web apps talk to the browser, which talks to the OS. Thus there’s an extra layer web apps have to pass, and that makes them slightly slower and coarser than native apps. This problem is unsolvable.

But what if the browser is the OS?

I agree with the point though that we shouldn't be trying to emulate native to the T with web applications, that we shouldn't be stuffing them full of JavaScript. I think the Google IO 2015 web app [1] is a good example of what can be done on the web right now with minimal overhead.

1: https://events.google.com/io2015/

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#7

Post by mahouse » Tue, May 26, 2015, 11:06 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #5

Unless you're making something that needs really good performance (3D gaming for example) building a hybrid app wins every time. Something based on Cordova (eg PhoneGap, Ionic) with Crosswalk can get you to about 90% of the performance of a native app, with about 1/2 of the development time because it's all built with web technology. 90% is easily good enough for most applications. Cordova wraps a uiWebView in some b…

Seeing you saying good things about Cordova makes me think you have never used Cordova.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#8

Post by EliRivers » Tue, May 26, 2015, 11:08 AM UTC

Navarr wrote: post #6

> Native apps talk directly to the operating system, while web apps talk to the browser, which talks to the OS. Thus there’s an extra layer web apps have to pass, and that makes them slightly slower and coarser than native apps. This problem is unsolvable. But what if the browser is the OS? I agree with the point though that we shouldn't be trying to emulate native to the T with web applications, that we shouldn't be…

But what if the browser is the OS?

Then the user has chosen, for whatever good reasons, to run a pretty limited OS, and in doing so has chosen not to be able to take advantage of all the things that having a much less limited OS would offer.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#9

Post by pjc50 » Tue, May 26, 2015, 11:08 AM UTC

Four points:

a) Tooling: yes, it's still much easier to debug a native app than a pseudo-native app.

b) "Emulating native leads to bad UX": this section is absolutely right. Stop hijacking scrolling and building in cruft.

c) "Hassle-free web": absolutely right. You don't need an app for that. Just give us the information and let us have the basic interaction we want. No, you shouldn't present your menu as a PDF either.

d) News: this is where I disagree. Users don't go to news sites so much; they go to aggregators which link them to individual articles (reddit, facebook). It's hard to deep-link into an app. This is a case of the app existing to further the commercial needs of the content provider (increase lockin, ads and tracking) in direct opposition to the wants of the user.

People keep trying to make the "magazine app" happen, and I've seen very little evidence of it working.

Re: Web vs. native: let’s concede defeat

#10

Post by frou_dh » Tue, May 26, 2015, 11:08 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #5

Unless you're making something that needs really good performance (3D gaming for example) building a hybrid app wins every time. Something based on Cordova (eg PhoneGap, Ionic) with Crosswalk can get you to about 90% of the performance of a native app, with about 1/2 of the development time because it's all built with web technology. 90% is easily good enough for most applications. Cordova wraps a uiWebView in some b…

Is a "win" for the developer necessarily a win for the users? Whose experience takes precedence?