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Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#41

Post by keithpeter »

rwallace wrote: post #5

The theory that remote working is advantageous has the unstated premise that the thing being optimized for is wealth. In that theory, it makes sense to use methods that let people get their jobs done with minimum cost and distraction. In reality, money is a weaker motive than power. When workers are on site, particularly in an open plan office, the boss's brain receives reminders every hour of every day that he is wi…

"When workers are on site, particularly in an open plan office, the boss's brain receives reminders every hour of every day that he is wielding power over underlings."

Teaching: you have to trust people. You can't be the 'pit boss'. Might be why I stayed in teaching I suppose - management has to support performance, not wield power.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#42

Post by keithpeter »

learnstats2 wrote: post #23
rwallace wrote: post #5

The theory that remote working is advantageous has the unstated premise that the thing being optimized for is wealth. In that theory, it makes sense to use methods that let people get their jobs done with minimum cost and distraction. In reality, money is a weaker motive than power. When workers are on site, particularly in an open plan office, the boss's brain receives reminders every hour of every day that he is wi…

My very first employer didn't have a consistent quantity of work for me to do and often made me sit in the office with just a chair and not even a desk. I proposed to the manager that I would rather be on call (even unpaid) in the library next-door than sit in the office paid with nothing to do. The manager agreed that there was nothing for me to do and agreed that there was nothing wrong with what I was proposing in…

My Dad worked for Marconi in Liverpool fixing radar and radios for ships late fifties and early 60s before they became a large multi-national. Certain kinds of staff were not always needed in the workshop e.g. radio officers signing off on repairs.

They hung out in a Dock Road pub. The techies wired up a loudspeaker to the pub (not radio, I suspect they hacked the Reddifusion cable radio) and called the staff when needed. I was quite impressed as a small boy (and, no, we as a country were not big on efficiency in those days).

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#44

Post by crdb »

armones wrote: post #26
lordbusiness wrote: post #20

You're most likely looking in the wrong place. The usual customary recruiting channels are setup to be usual and customary. You need to find the remote job boards. Oh, and networking, networking, networking.

https://remoteok.io/ http://jobs.remotive.io/ Please add others.

https://www.wfh.io/

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#45

Post by throwaway12309 »

jotm wrote: post #34
Htsthbjig wrote: post #29

I am entrepreneur (also studied engineering) in Europe. I have only worked remotely most of my life. Main problem is bureaucracy. The US is a big place and it is United from West to East Coast. In Europe, once you start making lots of money, every country you touch wants your money. So if you hire a French guy the French gobertment will love to tax YOUR ENTIRE business based on their socialistic views of the world, e…

Always-on audiovisual communication tools can fix the problem of employees not being on the job during work hours. And the multiple taxation is not an issue anymore - your company and you are taxed by location within the EU (assuming you're a citizen of the EU). Hell, you can even take advantage of it by establishing a residence in a cheap country but actually living elsewhere. Your company is taxed where it's founde…

Not really true. Most countries have a residency rule (for personal income) that if you live more than 165 days (or something to that effect) you will be taxed as a resident of that country. Even if you register a company in another country within the EU, you may still be liable to pay corporate tax on your residence country as some countries also have conditions on that (if you own more than X (usually around 70%) of a company, and the company country is considered a low tax jurisdiction (this can depend for some countries where some have lists, others have a corporate threshold and others have countries corporate tax As others mentioned, while more common, intra-community workers are a bureaucracy nightmare if you don't register a subsidiary in the employee's country, which if you do, then you have tax/social security+other stuff you need to take care in the employee's country.

Best way to do it is for employee to setup it's own company in country of residence and play by the rules, and then just be paid for services rendered and be responsible for all taxes/other.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#46

Post by themartorana »

gii2 wrote: post #38
magiconair wrote: post #19

I am one of these managers in Amsterdam with an international team of 10 people from 8 different countries who still writes code. My desire is to have a team that gets the job done. The most effective way for them to do this IMO is to have them sit together so that they can discuss issues they have immediately. We are seeing effects of less effective communication of teams sitting just a few desks apart. Remote work…

Well, the communication should be easy part. We are living in digital world, where you talk to your friends online more than you see them face-2-face. The communication between colleagues is pretty much the same. Europe does not have so many timezones, but if you decided to go farther east, that's different issue. I don't think everyone in the team should be involved in the architectural decisions of your product. Th…

Most anyone in sales will tell you there is absolutely no substitute for in-person, face-to-face (not face-to-face-on-screen) meetings. It establishes trust. There is more to conversation than words (and our brains are built to pick up on it). Not everyone is an architect, but even sharing knowledge, code review reviews, and so on - all better in person in general.

Remote isn't bad, per-se, but having worked remote, managed remote workers, and now owning a business, it is my anecdotal experience that things generally run smoother, more efficiently, and with deeper levels of trust and involvement between people in the same room.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#47

Post by gii2 »

charlesdm wrote: post #33
gii2 wrote: post #8

I couldn't agree more with jmnicolas - the situation is pretty similar in France, Switzerland, Belgium and Austria. There is some "hope" in UK and Germany, where they really expect to have something done. There was a guy (can't remember his name) who said that US is the only place where you can put US guys, Mexican, Chinese and ... (whoever) and make them work together. In Europe this is not the case, probably becaus…

> My other theory is that Europe is left behind US in the technical area. If something is top-notch in USA, it will "come" in mainland Europe in 10 or more years. This is ridiculous. There are a ton of amazing engineers/designers/etc in Europe, who are just as able as their US counterparts and deliver work at the same quality level. Plenty of them work remotely, either for EU or US companies.

That's correct. There are very skilled/talented individuals in EU, I have no doubts in that.

My point is that on company/organization level the EU companies are more ... how to say it... conservative and full of bureaucracy that their US counterparts. They pay for an employee and it they don't see him at his desk - there is a problem. The "communication" habits are also quite different IMHO.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#48

Post by dietrichepp »

gii2 wrote: post #38
magiconair wrote: post #19

I am one of these managers in Amsterdam with an international team of 10 people from 8 different countries who still writes code. My desire is to have a team that gets the job done. The most effective way for them to do this IMO is to have them sit together so that they can discuss issues they have immediately. We are seeing effects of less effective communication of teams sitting just a few desks apart. Remote work…

Well, the communication should be easy part. We are living in digital world, where you talk to your friends online more than you see them face-2-face. The communication between colleagues is pretty much the same. Europe does not have so many timezones, but if you decided to go farther east, that's different issue. I don't think everyone in the team should be involved in the architectural decisions of your product. Th…

Digital communication still has a long way to go. If I'm in a room with two people, I can tell what they're looking at. If I'm in a video conference, I can only tell that they're looking at something on their screen. Humans are one of the few animals with a visible sclera, and I don't think that this is some kind of coincidence.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#49

Post by ar0 »

jotm wrote: post #34
Htsthbjig wrote: post #29

I am entrepreneur (also studied engineering) in Europe. I have only worked remotely most of my life. Main problem is bureaucracy. The US is a big place and it is United from West to East Coast. In Europe, once you start making lots of money, every country you touch wants your money. So if you hire a French guy the French gobertment will love to tax YOUR ENTIRE business based on their socialistic views of the world, e…

Always-on audiovisual communication tools can fix the problem of employees not being on the job during work hours. And the multiple taxation is not an issue anymore - your company and you are taxed by location within the EU (assuming you're a citizen of the EU). Hell, you can even take advantage of it by establishing a residence in a cheap country but actually living elsewhere. Your company is taxed where it's founde…

Taxation is not the only legal hurdle, though: Which social deductions apply? Which labor laws apply to you if you work in your country but are employed in another country? Which rules will apply to you if you become ill or get pregnant? Who has to pay your retirement benefits and where do they go? At what age will you be allowed to retire? Will hiring you mean that the company might inadvertently establish a permanent establishment abroad at your home for legal and tax purposes? etc. pp.

There are answers to most (if not all) of these questions out there, but finding the right answer can be tricky and takes a lot of time (which, for a company, translates to a lot of money being spent on lawyers). So, as a company, do you spend all that time and money and take the risk that you made a mistake somewhere and the employment contract will be governed by rules you did not expect - or do you rather hire someone who will move to your place?

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to find remote jobs in Europe?

#50

Post by ar0 »

throwaway12309 wrote: post #45
jotm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always-on audiovisual communication tools can fix the problem of employees not being on the job during work hours. And the multiple taxation is not an issue anymore - your company and you are taxed by location within the EU (assuming you're a citizen of the EU). Hell, you can even take advantage of it by establishing a residence in a cheap country but actually living elsewhere. Your company is taxed where it's founde…

Not really true. Most countries have a residency rule (for personal income) that if you live more than 165 days (or something to that effect) you will be taxed as a resident of that country. Even if you register a company in another country within the EU, you may still be liable to pay corporate tax on your residence country as some countries also have conditions on that (if you own more than X (usually around 70%) o…

But be aware that many European countries know laws against quasi-self-employment ("Scheinselbständigkeit" in German) to avoid people becoming self-employed to avoid social security taxes. So, even if you set-up your own company but this company only serves one client (your de-facto "employer"), you and/or your employer might be liable for social security payments neither of you did expect. So even such a set-up might be too risky for some companies to consider.
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