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Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

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Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#141

Post by DannyBee »

alkonaut wrote: post #83
DannyBee wrote: post #34

Company set up to lower prices by avoiding regulatory overhead tries to avoid regulatory overhead - film at 11. FWIW: It seems really unlikely Uber will be able to play both sides of the coin on this one for much longer. Just in case anyone thought "courts have never considered things like Uber and the ADA before", they have. Search for "demand responsive transportation ADA" The fact that the drivers are or are not e…

In places where Uber is just another taxi company, it likely has to follow all the local regulations that apply to taxi companies. It's only special in the places where Uber pretends not to be a taxi by claiming it's some kind of "ride sharing". I think that isn't going to last very long.

"It's only special in the places"

My point is precisely: It is not special, for ADA purposes, in any of these places, regardless of the outcome of the "we aren't really a taxi company" argument they make.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#142

Post by gohrt »

maxlybbert wrote: post #138
sp332 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones that aren't accessible aren't breaking the ADA But Uber is breaking the ADA.

As far as I can tell, Uber's argument is that its drivers are independent contractors, and if anybody's breaking the law it's the drivers and not Uber (because, frankly, that's always Uber's argument). Taxis are also independent contractors. Not every taxi cab must be wheelchair accessible to comply with the ADA. Therefore it stands to reason that Uber's drivers don't necessarily need to modify their cars to comply w…

Uber is clearly the one provisioning the service to the customer, and is a large company. The drivers are contractors who do work for Uber, not for the customer. The customer pays Uber, Uber pays the driver. Uber is the car service, and must support its disabled customers.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#143

Post by gohrt »

vinceguidry wrote: post #131
stephenr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started So, if it's inconvenient, you get to pretend it doesn't exist because you're a "startup"? That kind of mindset is what's wrong with the startup community. "Disrupt" isn't a synonym for "break any laws you don't like" and "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

> "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!" It kinda is. Hear me out. Commerce is bound to be political. Offering up a product or service for sale isn't always going to be acceptable to everyone. So we pass laws to tell people what they can and can't do. So far, so good. Except that if this continues, the business landscape changes due to the collective weight of all these laws. Existing organizations that…

How many hundreds of millions of dollars does it take before you are no longer a "small" actor?

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#144

Post by gohrt »

tickit wrote: post #129
goatforce5 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If i'm building an MVP I might not even fully support all of the popular browsers, let alone the correct standards for screen readers, and my page layout will probably break if you increase the font size. Similarly my website is probably only in one language. (I'm not sure what my point is... I'm just thinking out loud.)

The Internet's a bit different, it's more of a virtual wild west... at least it used to be. If your service has a real world presence and you cut corners then you're more likely to bother someone - especially if you want to be ubiquitous.

The ADA applies to the Internet.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#145

Post by gamblor956 »

electroly wrote: post #100
stephenr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started So, if it's inconvenient, you get to pretend it doesn't exist because you're a "startup"? That kind of mindset is what's wrong with the startup community. "Disrupt" isn't a synonym for "break any laws you don't like" and "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

Yes, you do. Accessibility laws generally include exemptions for small businesses. The Americans with Disabilities Act definitely does. Title III goes out of its way to only require "reasonable accommodation" that is "readily achievable" and not overly burdensome to the small business.

A company, like Uber, that has raised several hundreds of millions of dollars in financing, is definitely not a small business and doesn't get to claim that exemption.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#146

Post by maxlybbert »

lkiernan wrote: post #94
maxlybbert wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New York, there are thousands of wheelchair accessible taxis ( http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/html/passenger/accessible.shtml ), but there are also thousands of taxis that aren't wheelchair accessible. The ones that aren't accessible aren't breaking the ADA (then again, the ADA requires "reasonable accomodation," so the ones that aren't wheelchair accessible probably still have to make an effort to put a wheelchair i…

Black cabs are more accessible by default, but I'd assume if I called ahead for any taxi I'd need to let them know of any special needs, the same as if I needed to let them know I wanted a taxi for 7 people? Shouldn't there be an area for adding special requests such as accessibility? You filter to the vehicles that are able and willing to take this passenger's money. I can only assume that, as contracted drivers, th…

That seems like to right answer to me.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#147

Post by jellicle »

UK-AL wrote: post #74
stephenr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You think it's more likely that their competitors have made up junk stories, than a company which has a known public history of ignoring rules and regulations, is breaking more rules and regulations?

Considering how many other taxi companies break regulations like this, but nothing said. Uber does it, and its a massive issue. I've lost count how many disabled unfriendly private taxi's there are, how many times the card machine "stops working". The industry in general is scummy. In general Uber is better than average. And junk stories are very common, common service PR companies provide. About 50% of news stories…

Taxi companies may fight regulations, but they don't flout them.

If the city says, "We want 500 accessible taxicabs next year", taxi companies may say, "How about 200, five years from now?"

But they won't say, "Fuck you, I'm a special bro-snowflake and your rules don't apply to me."

Uber has gone out of its way to earn all the negative stories about itself.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#148

Post by eatbuckyballs »

gohrt wrote: post #143
vinceguidry wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!" It kinda is. Hear me out. Commerce is bound to be political. Offering up a product or service for sale isn't always going to be acceptable to everyone. So we pass laws to tell people what they can and can't do. So far, so good. Except that if this continues, the business landscape changes due to the collective weight of all these laws. Existing organizations that…

How many hundreds of millions of dollars does it take before you are no longer a "small" actor?

I'd even go so far as to argue uber is larger than many taxi companies too. Not to take sides, but the whole small actor argument is bs now.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#149

Post by a3n »

oldmanjay wrote: post #123
a3n wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And "the law" is not the only measure of what's right. Just because it may end up being legal for Uber to discriminate against disabled doesn't mean they aren't major dicks. There's a fundamental rule for living in the world: Don't be a dick. Uber is breaking that rule, through sociopathic sophistry.

there are many related fundamental rules, like "everyone is considered a dick by someone" and "you're a dick if you blame a group for the actions of a few." mainly, though, none of these are actually rules because your subjective notion of what being a dick means isn't transferable outside of your head, even if it really, really feels like your opinions are right.

But by saying it, I hope to convince others. Because I really, really want "defending a corporation's right to condone and tolerate disabled discrimination" to be seen as being a dick.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#150

Post by Spivak »

gamblor956 wrote: post #145
electroly wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you do. Accessibility laws generally include exemptions for small businesses. The Americans with Disabilities Act definitely does. Title III goes out of its way to only require "reasonable accommodation" that is "readily achievable" and not overly burdensome to the small business.

A company, like Uber, that has raised several hundreds of millions of dollars in financing, is definitely not a small business and doesn't get to claim that exemption.

That was exactly his point.
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