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Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

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Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#131

I can kinda get that companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started. But once you reach a certain point (somewhere well before billion dollar valuations) it's unconscionable to ignore accessibility. > [Tim] Cook replied [...] that a return on investment (ROI) was not the primary consideration on such issues. “When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind,” he…

> companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started So, if it's inconvenient, you get to pretend it doesn't exist because you're a "startup"? That kind of mindset is what's wrong with the startup community. "Disrupt" isn't a synonym for "break any laws you don't like" and "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

> "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

It kinda is. Hear me out.

Commerce is bound to be political. Offering up a product or service for sale isn't always going to be acceptable to everyone. So we pass laws to tell people what they can and can't do. So far, so good.

Except that if this continues, the business landscape changes due to the collective weight of all these laws. Existing organizations that understand the growing burden of the necessary law that has to be complied with are eventually the only entities that can do business.

There needs to be some mechanism to operate in the opposite direction, to deprecate laws and allow smaller companies, who don't have the operational capacity to obey every single law that's ever been passed, to do business.

Law is an imperfect instrument, it remains imperfect no matter how much social good it does, it never foresees all the different ways that society can evolve. The startup, the small, scrappy player that seeks out market opportunities and creates businesses out of them, has to be willing to break laws, has to be willing to believe in itself and its ability to help society evolve.

Small economic actors have always played this role in society, there's nothing magic about Silicon Valley-style startups in this regard.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#132
post #69

This really saddens me. I used to love Uber, it was one of my favourite companies. I remember when I first used it - I'd gone down to London and was going to try UberLux out, just for the one trip. I ended up using it about four times that day, even though it was far more expensive than a taxi. It was incredible and worth every penny because unlike taxis, Uber was professional[1]. The driver was polite, you got a bot…

Interesting - I've only been using Uber for ~2 years now but I came across it from the opposite direction. I couldn't afford them until UberX came out. I took an UberX last night and the driver didn't know the cross street in Harlem I told him to go to. He insisted on me finding the street address and putting it in the app so that GPS could guide him. Then he asked for five stars before I left. His car had random wat…

That's fair enough. I certainly couldn't afford to use UberLux every day but I only rarely get taxis (maybe a few times a month) so I'd rather pay for a premium service when I do.

A perfect situation I feel would be if Lyft concentrated on the affordable end and Uber went high end. Immediately, there'd be no more Lyft vs Uber nonsense and Lyft would get all of the aggression from the taxi industry instead of Uber, as Uber would no longer really be competing with taxis.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#133
post #4

This kind of concerns me. I have a T4/T5 spinal cord injury from a snowboarding accident 4.5Y ago. I have good hand and arm function but that's it no abdominals etc. I drive myself to work everyday and transfer in and out and fold up my wheelchair. London's black cabs all have ramps. UBER is making big inroads here and I'm worried that eventually it'll be tricky to get a black cab. I can transfer into a regular car b…

The issue isn't that Uber is discriminating. In fact, the subject of the article was a twice weekly user of Uber for two years. A single driver didn't think the wheelchair would fit in the car. It seems like something that should be reported, and the driver should be dealt with. To take an issue that happens less than 1% of the time and make it sound like it's UBER is a bit absurd.

No, it happened twice to her in two weeks.

The question is, does Uber have training in place on what rights a disabled passenger has? Do they discipline or dismiss drivers who receive disability complaints?

It sounds like Uber's response has been that it has no duty to support or enforce the ADA.

Uber is forcing taxis out of business. One of the reasons that taxis are regulated is that they are bound by law to transport the disabled. If we are going to let Uber put them out of business, then we have to aggressively protect the rights of the disabled.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New York, there are thousands of wheelchair accessible taxis ( http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/html/passenger/accessible.shtml ), but there are also thousands of taxis that aren't wheelchair accessible. The ones that aren't accessible aren't breaking the ADA (then again, the ADA requires "reasonable accomodation," so the ones that aren't wheelchair accessible probably still have to make an effort to put a wheelchair i…

Black cabs are more accessible by default, but I'd assume if I called ahead for any taxi I'd need to let them know of any special needs, the same as if I needed to let them know I wanted a taxi for 7 people? Shouldn't there be an area for adding special requests such as accessibility? You filter to the vehicles that are able and willing to take this passenger's money. I can only assume that, as contracted drivers, th…

The point here is that no special accommodation is required!!! The subject's chair fits anywhere a second passenger or a large suitcase would go. These two drivers didn't even want to try, and the second driver harassed her all the way to the airport, even after she put her chair in the car herself.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#135
post #4

This kind of concerns me. I have a T4/T5 spinal cord injury from a snowboarding accident 4.5Y ago. I have good hand and arm function but that's it no abdominals etc. I drive myself to work everyday and transfer in and out and fold up my wheelchair. London's black cabs all have ramps. UBER is making big inroads here and I'm worried that eventually it'll be tricky to get a black cab. I can transfer into a regular car b…

The issue isn't that Uber is discriminating. In fact, the subject of the article was a twice weekly user of Uber for two years. A single driver didn't think the wheelchair would fit in the car. It seems like something that should be reported, and the driver should be dealt with. To take an issue that happens less than 1% of the time and make it sound like it's UBER is a bit absurd.

That part of the story is just an example. The point of the story is the argument Uber is using in the lawsuit. Uber maintains it's not a taxi service and therefore not responsible for the drivers actions or the accessibility of the vehicle. Additionally, suggesting that this is a 1% problem like it's a minor edge case bug is outrageously insensitive. This problem impacts real people.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "sharing". It was never "sharing". It's sharecropping.

You might have a case for calling it "sharecropping" if Uber owned the cars and the drivers were paying Uber for the privilege of using them. They are not though, so it's a gross misapplication of the term.

Drivers pay for the vehicle as well as all maintenance and operational costs. They also pay for insurance. They aren't covered by workers compensation if injured while on the job.

Oh, and Uber even "helps" you get a car and they get a cut of the purchase and financing: https://get.uber.com/cl/financing/

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#138
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New York, there are thousands of wheelchair accessible taxis ( http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/html/passenger/accessible.shtml ), but there are also thousands of taxis that aren't wheelchair accessible. The ones that aren't accessible aren't breaking the ADA (then again, the ADA requires "reasonable accomodation," so the ones that aren't wheelchair accessible probably still have to make an effort to put a wheelchair i…

The ones that aren't accessible aren't breaking the ADA But Uber is breaking the ADA.

As far as I can tell, Uber's argument is that its drivers are independent contractors, and if anybody's breaking the law it's the drivers and not Uber (because, frankly, that's always Uber's argument).

Taxis are also independent contractors. Not every taxi cab must be wheelchair accessible to comply with the ADA. Therefore it stands to reason that Uber's drivers don't necessarily need to modify their cars to comply with the ADA. I will concede that Uber drivers have a requirement to make a reasonable accomodation for disabled passengers.

It still isn't established if Uber's drivers really are independent contractors. But if they are, I don't see how Uber is in violation of the ADA. Individual drivers may well be. And Uber will need to sort things out if it expects people to continue to sign up as drivers.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#139
post #3

It doesn't matter what the law says, in my opinion. Discrimination is discrimination. You wouldn't stop an African-American from getting into your car, right?

One of these is a case of "I don't like you people, go away!" The other is a case of "I don't want to provide additional service for free!"
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