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Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

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Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#121

Post by jackgavigan »

dia80 wrote: post #4

This kind of concerns me. I have a T4/T5 spinal cord injury from a snowboarding accident 4.5Y ago. I have good hand and arm function but that's it no abdominals etc. I drive myself to work everyday and transfer in and out and fold up my wheelchair. London's black cabs all have ramps. UBER is making big inroads here and I'm worried that eventually it'll be tricky to get a black cab. I can transfer into a regular car b…

> London's black cabs all have ramps.

It's worth noting that this is due to a legal requirement that all licensed taxis (i.e. black taxis) must be wheelchair accessible. I think that requirement came into force around 1999 and it resulted in a lot of older taxis that weren't wheelchair-accessible being sold on the second-hand market when their owners were forced to upgrade.

So, in addition to successfully completing the Knowledge[1], black taxi drivers must operate using a compliant vehicle (which is inevitably more expensive than a normal vehicle, which Uber drivers typically use), and they must pick up anyone (including a disabled person who hails them while their light is on (if they ignore you or refuse to carry you without good reason, you can complain to the Public Carriage Office, which can take away a driver's taxi license).

In return for complying with all these requirements, licensed taxi drivers are allowed to pick people up on the street and calculate the fare using a taximeter.

Other cab drivers (driving what are typically referred to as minicabs or "private hire vehicles") are supposed to agree a fare with the passenger up front and are specifically prohibited, by law, from using a taximeter.[2]

London's licensed taxis drivers' view is that the Uber app is effectively a meter, and therefore, Uber drivers are breaking the law. The High Court will rule on the matter this summer.[3]

1: http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/10/london-taxi-te...

2: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/34/section/11

3: http://www.cityam.com/212676/high-court-ruling-taximeters-co...

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#122

Post by kaolinite »

DanBC wrote: post #98
kaolinite wrote: post #27

This really saddens me. I used to love Uber, it was one of my favourite companies. I remember when I first used it - I'd gone down to London and was going to try UberLux out, just for the one trip. I ended up using it about four times that day, even though it was far more expensive than a taxi. It was incredible and worth every penny because unlike taxis, Uber was professional[1]. The driver was polite, you got a bot…

> I was recently in a taxi where the taxi driver said a number of very racist things, directly insulted me, my fellow passenger and pretty much anyone he came into contact with during the ride (other cars, pedestrians, etc) and swore repeatedly. Please do always reprt this! I know you shouldn't have to; I know it happens far too often. But please do report it. https://www.tfl.gov.uk/forms/12397.aspx https://www.tfl.g…

Thanks for those links, I didn't realise it was that easy. However, this was in a private taxi and not in London, but yes, I could have reported it.

Honestly though, my problem isn't with the occasional awful ride, but the far more frequent slightly annoying rides. The ones where the driver won't stop talking or asking about local women or good bars in the city or the latest football gossip. I can't complain about that (nor do I really have the right to) but it's a huge reason why I prefer the Uber service.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#123

Post by oldmanjay »

a3n wrote: post #64
stephenr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started So, if it's inconvenient, you get to pretend it doesn't exist because you're a "startup"? That kind of mindset is what's wrong with the startup community. "Disrupt" isn't a synonym for "break any laws you don't like" and "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

And "the law" is not the only measure of what's right. Just because it may end up being legal for Uber to discriminate against disabled doesn't mean they aren't major dicks. There's a fundamental rule for living in the world: Don't be a dick. Uber is breaking that rule, through sociopathic sophistry.

there are many related fundamental rules, like "everyone is considered a dick by someone" and "you're a dick if you blame a group for the actions of a few."

mainly, though, none of these are actually rules because your subjective notion of what being a dick means isn't transferable outside of your head, even if it really, really feels like your opinions are right.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#124

Post by Frondo »

tedunangst wrote: post #93
stephenr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started So, if it's inconvenient, you get to pretend it doesn't exist because you're a "startup"? That kind of mindset is what's wrong with the startup community. "Disrupt" isn't a synonym for "break any laws you don't like" and "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

Well, some provisions of the law only apply to businesses above a certain size, so yes, a startup literally can be above the law.

They're not above the law--it's just that, under a certain size, some law may not apply to them.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#125

Post by jordanthoms »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #39
striking wrote: post #3

It doesn't matter what the law says, in my opinion. Discrimination is discrimination. You wouldn't stop an African-American from getting into your car, right?

Uber drivers regularly discriminate based on race by discriminating based on location of drop off... hence the high rates of 'cancelled' riders Uber users in SF and NYC see when traveling to certain neighborhoods. Neighborhoods that just happen to have higher percentages of non-white residents. This is why we have laws against drop-off discrimination here in NYC. But Uber being Uber sees them as bureaucratic red tape…

My understanding is that Uber drivers don't see the dropoff location until they pick up the passenger, and at any rate you can simply not enter the destination and tell the driver where to go.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#126

Post by parfe »

Airbnb, Uber, and the unbonded money transmitter of the month, are all making obscene amount of money breaking the law and investors keep rewarding them.

It's really easy in home construction to make a profit if you hire illegal immigrants, pay them an illegal wage, don't carry insurance, don't pay payroll taxes, and don't pay overtime. If only I could hide all that behind an app, I'd call it a startup and become a billionaire!

It's to the point where I have serious issues with the morals of people working for and investing in such outright abusive companies. You might "just" be a programmer, but you're still earning your paycheck breaking the law and skimming money away from businesses that are legit, protect their customers, and exercise the base level of ethics. But I guess you personally didn't abandon a handicapped person on the side of the road, or deny a trip to a black neighborhood, so you don't feel like you did anything wrong?

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#127

Post by jackgavigan »

hahainternet wrote: post #63
dia80 wrote: post #4

This kind of concerns me. I have a T4/T5 spinal cord injury from a snowboarding accident 4.5Y ago. I have good hand and arm function but that's it no abdominals etc. I drive myself to work everyday and transfer in and out and fold up my wheelchair. London's black cabs all have ramps. UBER is making big inroads here and I'm worried that eventually it'll be tricky to get a black cab. I can transfer into a regular car b…

Uber in the UK uses licensed taxi drivers the same as any other Private Hire firm. I think they'd have an extremely hard time claiming that they are exempt from UK and EU law. Furthermore, Black Cabs are an entirely different taxi group and the competition between them is regulated AFAIK.

> Uber in the UK uses licensed taxi drivers the same as any other Private Hire firm.

That is not correct.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#129

Post by tickit »

goatforce5 wrote: post #90
stephenr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started So, if it's inconvenient, you get to pretend it doesn't exist because you're a "startup"? That kind of mindset is what's wrong with the startup community. "Disrupt" isn't a synonym for "break any laws you don't like" and "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

If i'm building an MVP I might not even fully support all of the popular browsers, let alone the correct standards for screen readers, and my page layout will probably break if you increase the font size. Similarly my website is probably only in one language. (I'm not sure what my point is... I'm just thinking out loud.)

The Internet's a bit different, it's more of a virtual wild west... at least it used to be. If your service has a real world presence and you cut corners then you're more likely to bother someone - especially if you want to be ubiquitous.

Re: Uber: Disability Laws Don’t Apply to Us

#130

Post by sp332 »

maxlybbert wrote: post #76
stephenr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies might want to skip around accessibility issues when they're first getting started So, if it's inconvenient, you get to pretend it doesn't exist because you're a "startup"? That kind of mindset is what's wrong with the startup community. "Disrupt" isn't a synonym for "break any laws you don't like" and "startup" isn't a synonym for "I am above the law!"

In New York, there are thousands of wheelchair accessible taxis ( http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/html/passenger/accessible.shtml ), but there are also thousands of taxis that aren't wheelchair accessible. The ones that aren't accessible aren't breaking the ADA (then again, the ADA requires "reasonable accomodation," so the ones that aren't wheelchair accessible probably still have to make an effort to put a wheelchair i…

The ones that aren't accessible aren't breaking the ADA

But Uber is breaking the ADA.

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