My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary • Hacker News Board

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#61

Post by teekert » Thu, May 21, 2015, 11:26 AM UTC

pparkkin wrote: post #16

teekert wrote: post #8

>"Without that knowledge, I would never have known I was being suckered." Suckered by yourself you mean, and suckered by the people that never taught you the principles of a free market where the assumption is that when two parties agree, the situation is satisfactory for both. If not, there is no agreement, no deal. The other party was not suckering you, you were happy with the deal, you took it. Why do you put some…

I think what she's referring to is a situation of information asymmetry, which puts the employee in a position of less power in the negotiation. Of course it's up to you to negotiate for yourself. That's pretty obvious. But if the other party holds more power, you're negotiating at a disadvantage. And the way I understood the article, that is what she meant by being "suckered". Being put at a disadvantage when negoti…

She did not negotiate, she repeatedly assumed that the offered salary was normal. Assumption is the mother of all f* ups.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#62

Post by falcolas » Thu, May 21, 2015, 12:59 PM UTC

godzilla82 wrote: post #33

I feel this is a faulty exercise. Would you disclose your salary if you knew you made more than your peers? I guess the end effect would be, only those who feel they are making less would disclose.

Because you would like to see your peers get paid equitably? They can't use your salary as leverage in their own negotiations unless they know what it is.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#63

Post by gamechangr » Thu, May 21, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

dmak wrote: post #23

hueving wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She failed to negotiate when she was hired. Is that really a double standard?

She was saying that she was offered 35,000 less than the previous person for the same role. If she was truly valued, why was she not offered just as much if not more?

There is quite a bit lacking from your logic.

For example, maybe the previous boss had been on the job 10 years. Maybe his starting salary was also $35,000 less than when he ended, in which case they would be valued equally!!

Maybe she was NOT AS GOOD. I know many people who think they are equally as good as their boss and are no where close.

Maybe those with the skill to sell themselves should make more? Why is that so offensive?

Maybe the whole newspaper industry has taken a major hit and the company does not have the available operational budget that they were once able to spend.

It's disappointing that all of these legitimate ideas are passed over and we proceed to assume it was gender related. Really?

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#64

Post by omahlama » Thu, May 21, 2015, 1:28 PM UTC

In my previous job at the Finnish software consulting company Futurice (http://futurice.com), there was a long discussion about this that ended with a volunteer-based publication of peoples salaries - around half of the 200 people opted in. The result was a bit anti-climatic: peoples wages were consistent and fair, no big drama.

After switching jobs to another software consulting company Reaktor (http://reaktor.com), I brought up this topic and the discussion was very similar. I decided to try a different route: I created a wiki-page called "Voluntary salary information" and added my name and salary to the top of the page. I then wrote a post to our discourse board explaining why I thought this was important. As of now there are 68 names on that list ( with only 1 obvious troll ) out of about 300 employees. Our head of HR replied to my discourse post with a detailed explanation of how peoples salaries are decided. Overall a great day for transparency.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#65

Post by mkagenius » Thu, May 21, 2015, 1:34 PM UTC

yitchelle wrote: post #15

mkagenius wrote: post #10

I have had three managers till now. I have asked all three what was their salary. Only one told me his salary, rest two didn't. I keep asking salaries when I become friends with my coworkers, mostly because its a taboo and hence makes it fun. It makes them laugh when I suddenly in the middle of a conversation ask their salary becuase nobody has in the 10-15 years of their careers. I am a fresher, though.

That is interesting. Did you disclose your salary to your coworkers, and if you did, did that effect your relationship with your coworkers?

All three of my managers know my salary (of course).

Apart from that, people with whom I am close with know my salary and I know theirs. Mine is the lowest even though one of my friend is IC1 and I am IC2, others are senior to me.

Some of them tell me to talk to the manager for my salary. My priority is learning, so it doesn't bother me much. But I did talk to the manager (and her manager's manager too), because if you don't, they take you for granted.

By knowing I had the lowest salary gives me lot of opportunities to crack jokes :-)

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#66

Post by sukilot » Thu, May 21, 2015, 2:45 PM UTC

Cederfjard wrote: post #39

geon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Sweden, taxable income for everyone is bublicly available. I always find it amusing/sad to read about this taboo in the US.

Isn't it sort of taboo here too, though? I've seen people being told to fuck off for asking that question, or at least politely declined. Even my close family have always been reluctant to divulge their exact income to me, with a few exceptions. It's not a thing that I would ask someone without feeling pretty certain they wouldn't mind.

There are two issues: knowing and discussing.

In Sweden, they are separate. In US, they are unavoidably mixed.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#67

Post by sukilot » Thu, May 21, 2015, 2:50 PM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #5

One of the reasons I like sites like glassdoor is that it separates the judgment from the data. I don't need to know that Alice makes 22% less than Bob, and Bob makes 18% less than Claire, and therefore make personal judgments about each of my coworkers (like Alice is a pushover; Bob is mediocre; Claire is bossy.) I just need to know what the distribution is, in my company or in my industry, in order to negotiate for…

Unfortunately, glass door also separates the accuracy from the data. They don't even try to aggregate total compensation properly, when equity and benefits are involved.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#68

Post by sukilot » Thu, May 21, 2015, 2:51 PM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #5

One of the reasons I like sites like glassdoor is that it separates the judgment from the data. I don't need to know that Alice makes 22% less than Bob, and Bob makes 18% less than Claire, and therefore make personal judgments about each of my coworkers (like Alice is a pushover; Bob is mediocre; Claire is bossy.) I just need to know what the distribution is, in my company or in my industry, in order to negotiate for…

Interesting that your example used "bossy" for a female

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#69

Post by sukilot » Thu, May 21, 2015, 2:52 PM UTC

draugadrotten wrote: post #35

paulbaumgart wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds expensive.

In practice, it also leads to the lawyer and union representatives having 10x-50x the pay of the people they "work for". Study Swedish unions to see how it works.

That's not a priori wrong. Different roles command different salaries.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#70

Post by sukilot » Thu, May 21, 2015, 2:55 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #8

>"Without that knowledge, I would never have known I was being suckered." Suckered by yourself you mean, and suckered by the people that never taught you the principles of a free market where the assumption is that when two parties agree, the situation is satisfactory for both. If not, there is no agreement, no deal. The other party was not suckering you, you were happy with the deal, you took it. Why do you put some…

Holy cow can you communicate an idea without being a raging asshole?

For bonus points,go for an idea that isn't a long boring paraphrase of the person you are commenting. Being "suckered" means exactly what you said, with all the self-deprecation you felt so needed to be reinforced with others deprecation.