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My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

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Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#11

Post by Dylan16807 »

hueving wrote: post #7
gamechangr wrote: post #2

>"Did the knowledge hurt my relationships with my coworkers? Yes. Of course it did. I felt cheated. I felt undervalued. I frankly felt I was the victim of a double standard."

She failed to negotiate when she was hired. Is that really a double standard?

"Double standard" is a fuzzy term, because you it depends on how you describe a situation. If you only accept even numbers, is that a single standard to decide if numbers are even, or a double standard of treating even and odd numbers differently? (yes this is an overly simple example, flesh it out in your head if necessary)

But in objective terms, she had less pay because of negotiation skill, and negotiation skill correlates with gender.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#12

Post by geon »

dennish00a wrote: post #9

I find it interesting to read about this "taboo" because, as a scientist at a public university, the issue is...nonexistent! If you are a scientist writing grant applications with other people (the norm), then you need to know their exact salaries in order to fill out the application. This includes the salaries of people above and below you in the food chain. There is no mystery or taboo in it whatsoever. Working at…

Here in Sweden, taxable income for everyone is bublicly available. I always find it amusing/sad to read about this taboo in the US.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#13

Post by daeken »

I've come to realize lately that I have absolutely no idea what I should be making. I know what I make and I know what I have made in the past, but I have no idea whether it's above or below average.

The only way I can think of to determine my value is to go interview in a bunch of places and see what they offer. However, I have no interest in leaving my job right now, and I feel like it's dishonest to go through the process knowing that I wouldn't take anything but a ridiculously great offer.

How do other folks deal with this? (Edit: Glassdoor has no decent information for my position, at any of the companies I've looked at.)

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#15

Post by yitchelle »

mkagenius wrote: post #10

I have had three managers till now. I have asked all three what was their salary. Only one told me his salary, rest two didn't. I keep asking salaries when I become friends with my coworkers, mostly because its a taboo and hence makes it fun. It makes them laugh when I suddenly in the middle of a conversation ask their salary becuase nobody has in the 10-15 years of their careers. I am a fresher, though.

That is interesting. Did you disclose your salary to your coworkers, and if you did, did that effect your relationship with your coworkers?

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#16

Post by pparkkin »

teekert wrote: post #8

>"Without that knowledge, I would never have known I was being suckered." Suckered by yourself you mean, and suckered by the people that never taught you the principles of a free market where the assumption is that when two parties agree, the situation is satisfactory for both. If not, there is no agreement, no deal. The other party was not suckering you, you were happy with the deal, you took it. Why do you put some…

I think what she's referring to is a situation of information asymmetry, which puts the employee in a position of less power in the negotiation.

Of course it's up to you to negotiate for yourself. That's pretty obvious. But if the other party holds more power, you're negotiating at a disadvantage. And the way I understood the article, that is what she meant by being "suckered". Being put at a disadvantage when negotiating for something important to her.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#17

Post by mgalka »

teekert wrote: post #8

>"Without that knowledge, I would never have known I was being suckered." Suckered by yourself you mean, and suckered by the people that never taught you the principles of a free market where the assumption is that when two parties agree, the situation is satisfactory for both. If not, there is no agreement, no deal. The other party was not suckering you, you were happy with the deal, you took it. Why do you put some…

Despite being a libertarian, I Disagree.

The salary of her colleague is not intrinsic value, it is a market-determined value. And her skills are similar enough that the comparison is relevant.

If we were talking about a different market, I would probably agree with you, but labor markets are different. One side has all the information and all the bargaining power.

The company starts off knowing pretty well the typical salary for the position. And if they lowball, there is not a lot of risk because if the person is offended and rejects the job, they can just go to the next person in the list.

The person applying for the job faces much bigger consequences if they cannot reach an agreement. Finding another job may take a long time. If I was in her shoes and had very little idea of what other people with my skills are paid, I would be very hesitant to do any real negotiating, and risk losing the opportunity.

I think she should acknowledge that some of it is her own fault, but it does sound like she was suckered.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#18

Post by mgalka »

pparkkin wrote: post #16
teekert wrote: post #8

>"Without that knowledge, I would never have known I was being suckered." Suckered by yourself you mean, and suckered by the people that never taught you the principles of a free market where the assumption is that when two parties agree, the situation is satisfactory for both. If not, there is no agreement, no deal. The other party was not suckering you, you were happy with the deal, you took it. Why do you put some…

I think what she's referring to is a situation of information asymmetry, which puts the employee in a position of less power in the negotiation. Of course it's up to you to negotiate for yourself. That's pretty obvious. But if the other party holds more power, you're negotiating at a disadvantage. And the way I understood the article, that is what she meant by being "suckered". Being put at a disadvantage when negoti…

You wrote this just as I was typing effectively the same response. I agree.

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#19

Post by bobbles »

daeken wrote: post #13

I've come to realize lately that I have absolutely no idea what I should be making. I know what I make and I know what I have made in the past, but I have no idea whether it's above or below average. The only way I can think of to determine my value is to go interview in a bunch of places and see what they offer. However, I have no interest in leaving my job right now, and I feel like it's dishonest to go through the…

If you're in Australia or New Zealand (I think you're US?) there is the Hays salary guide http://www.hays.com.au/salary-guide/

It's an awesome document. Even though the numbers would be completely different I think that something like the breakdown between junior/senior etc level roles would probably be similar in the US? (in terms of the % salary jump you'd get from moving up or sideways)

Re: My Struggle with the Last Great Taboo: Admitting My Salary

#20

Post by Falkon1313 »

hueving wrote: post #7
gamechangr wrote: post #2

>"Did the knowledge hurt my relationships with my coworkers? Yes. Of course it did. I felt cheated. I felt undervalued. I frankly felt I was the victim of a double standard."

She failed to negotiate when she was hired. Is that really a double standard?

Yes. It is a double standard. People do make more money by negotiating a new job than they ever could by excelling at the one they work at.

Most of us are conditioned from the beginning not to negotiate, we can't do so until late in the game, and even then it can be difficult.

Someone who enters a job straight from school (after having been conditioned to believe that parents, teachers, authority figures generally have your best interests in mind and don't negotiate) is less likely to negotiate.

Someone who starts a minimum wage or entry-level job probably doesn't have a chance to negotiate because 800 other applicants are willing to take it for minimum wage.

Later in their career, having worked their way up but discovering that others around them make more, they may realize that they're being cheated and negotiation could be a good idea. So they apply for a new midlevel job at a different company, negotiate, and do well.

Meanwhile their new coworkers who worked their way up from a non-negotiable starting point make much less, even though they may have more company-specific or even industry-specific experience. Typical corporate policy limits raises by percentage, so they can never even reach equal pay no matter if they excel at their job.

Therefore, having been cheated, they apply for a new midlevel job, negotiate, and do well. While their new coworkers who worked their way up make much less...

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