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Logjam TLS attack

weakdh.org

81–90 of 103 posts

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#81
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can solve the 1024-bit DH problem "on demand" we should probably be eying 2048-bit DH with some suspicion. (I'm agreeing with your point.)

Attacks don't really scale like that. If 2048 bit prime field discrete logs fail, all of prime field discrete logs (and with it probably RSA) will probably be done for. There is, as I understand it, a huge performance penalty for using keys larger than 2048 bits. People should just use 2048 bit keys, or stop using conventional prime field public key algorithms altogether, is what I think.

Well, if they could crack 1024-bit primes in under a day, how long would you anticipate 2048-bit would last? That's why I said eye it suspiciously.

I don't think the NSA can do this on demand.

> People should just use 2048 bit keys, or stop using conventional prime field public key algorithms altogether, is what I think.

I believe moving towards ECC (especially djb's work) is probably the right move.

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#82
Looks like Amazon's EC2 ELBs have a common 1024 DH. I don't see a way to fix it without moving away from ELBs, or getting Amazon to fix it.

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#83
post #49
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The newly disclosed research clearly demonstrates that the common parameters enable "precompute just once, attack fast everywhere" whereas when everybody simply generates their own values that approach becomes impossible. The difference is between the days of computation versus the seconds in their example. The difference is many orders of magnitude, it is if everybody everywhere can be attacked anytime or just someb…

Thanks for elaborating. The 'other side' are the people currently working on the negotiated-ffdhe draft (which I assume are bright people too). The draft was last updated a week ago (12 May 2015), so their considerations must be quite recent. I'm just trying to get a sense of pros and cons. Iirc, generating own groups has its problems too. For example, the Triple Handshake attack ( https://www.secure-resumption.com/…

The folks working on that draft have definitely become aware of this research. Soon we'll see what they have to say about it.

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#84
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit strange this was published while the vulnerability isn't patched for the majority of users out there. Browsers vendors don't tend to lag security fixes, so why no responsible disclosure? Or is this just not really a browser issue, and held back on the browser side because blocking insecure ciphers breaks most of the internet?

> so why no responsible disclosure? Presumably because the main danger here comes from state-level adversaries who already know and actively exploit the issue, not script kiddies who might get funny ideas after reading the announcement. So the sooner it is published and people can start fixing their servers and clients, the less damage is done.

Yeah, a big part of the risk here is that someone might spend a couple million dollars and have a form of this capability up and running within a couple of months (and that governments may have done that by around 2010). If you want to improve your crypto, you can probably roll out a better configuration much faster than new adversaries can get these capabilities up and running. (Except for this Java compatibility problem, maybe.)

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#85
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacks don't really scale like that. If 2048 bit prime field discrete logs fail, all of prime field discrete logs (and with it probably RSA) will probably be done for. There is, as I understand it, a huge performance penalty for using keys larger than 2048 bits. People should just use 2048 bit keys, or stop using conventional prime field public key algorithms altogether, is what I think.

Well, if they could crack 1024-bit primes in under a day, how long would you anticipate 2048-bit would last? That's why I said eye it suspiciously. I don't think the NSA can do this on demand. > People should just use 2048 bit keys, or stop using conventional prime field public key algorithms altogether, is what I think. I believe moving towards ECC (especially djb's work) is probably the right move.

Much much longer. We can reason about how an attacker with very large compute resources can break 1024 bit DH/RSA. Given the feasibility of a 1024 break, we can also reason about optimizations that would serve to make that attack deployable in the real world.

We can't do the former thing at all for 2048 bit DH/RSA, let alone the latter.

Entities attacking 1024 bit keys are doing something we've believed would be inevitable for something like a decade.

When 2048 bit DH/RSA falls, DH and RSA will probably fall with them; they won't fall because compute resources eventually catch up to them, but rather because we discover something about integer factorization or discrete logs that makes prime field cryptography altogether unsafe.

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#86

Hackers have really lost their sense of humor. This would have been at the top of the page had I come up with this name: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ-oafGPkqg (with an author name of Karl Hungus)

NSFW

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#87
post #76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you (and pbsd) think of the site's recommendation to use custom 2048-bit parameters as opposed to a well-known 2048-bit group such as group 14 from RFC3526? Is it really that likely a nation-level adversary could break 2048-bit FFDHE the same way they've probably broken the 1024-bit group 2? How does that weigh against the risk of implementation errors generating your own parameters, or the risk of choosing a…

Group 14 is fine. You might as well also tell people to use custom block ciphers, since a precomputation of roughly the same magnitude---compute a common plaintext under many possible keys---would break AES-128 pretty quickly as well. I would say use a custom group if you must stick with 1024-bit groups for some reason. Otherwise, use a vetted 2048+-bit group. If---or when---2048-bit discrete logs over a prime field…

Seconded. Group 14 (2048-bit, ≈112-bit workfactor) or another safe 2048-bit or greater prime (such as ffdhe2048, or ffdhe3072 @ ≈128-bit workfactor) will do fine for now. You don't need to roll your own safe primes. As per the paper: "When primes are of sufficient strength, there seems to be no disadvantage to reusing them."

The problem with reusing them is of course when they're not strong enough, and so if an adversary can pop one, they can get a lot of traffic - and as I've said for a while and as the paper makes clear, 1024-bit and below are definitely not strong enough. Anything below 2048-bit would be a bit suspect at this point (which is precisely why the TLS Working Group rejected including any primes in the ffdhe draft smaller than that - even though a couple of people were arguing for them!).

If you're still needing to use 1024-bit DH, DSA or RSA for anything at all, and you can't use larger or switch to ECC for any reason, I feel you have a Big Problem looming you need to get to fixing. Custom DH groups will not buy you long enough time to ignore it - get a plan in place to replace it now. We thought 1024-bit was erring on the small side in the 1990s!

I concur that the NSA's attack on VPN looks like an operational finite-field DH break - I didn't realise that two-thirds of IKE out there would still negotiate Oakley 1 (768) and 2 (1024), but I suppose I didn't account for IKE hardware! Ouch!

Their attacks on TLS are, though also passive, architected far more simply and more suggestive of an RC4 break to me as there seems to be no backend HPC needed - ciphertext goes in, plaintext comes out. Both are realistic attacks, I feel, but RC4 would have been far more common in TLS at the time than 1024-bit DHE, and although 1024-bit RSA would be present many likely sites would have been using 2048-bit, so naturally they'd go for the easiest attack available. (That gives us a loose upper bound for how hard it is to break RC4: easier than this!) I also don't think the CRYPTO group at GCHQ would have described this as a "surprising […] cryptologic advance" from NSA, but just an (entirely-predictable) computational advance, and (again) lots of people in practice relying on crypto that really should have been phased out at least a decade ago. So there's probably more to come on that front.

Best current practice: Forget DHE, use ECDHE with secp256r1 instead (≈128-bit workfactor, much faster, no index calculus). You can probably do that today with just about everything (except perhaps Java). It will be faster, and safer. And, we know of nothing wrong with NIST P-256 at this point, despite its murky origins.

Looking forward, Curve25519 (≈128-bit) and Ed448-Goldilocks (≈222-bit) are, of course, even better still as the algorithms are more foolproof and they are "rigid" with no doubts about where they come from (and in Curve25519's case, it's even faster still). CFRG is working on recommending those for TLS and wider standardisation. You can use 25519 in the latest versions of OpenSSH right now, and you should if you can.

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#88
post #55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox Developer Edition, which is on 40.0, is also reported as vulnerable.

It's a bit strange this was published while the vulnerability isn't patched for the majority of users out there. Browsers vendors don't tend to lag security fixes, so why no responsible disclosure? Or is this just not really a browser issue, and held back on the browser side because blocking insecure ciphers breaks most of the internet?

Because this isn't really an attack per se. There are some interesting things in the paper, but really this is just low grade crypto being tolerated for far too long in the name of compatibility.

I finally found the Mozilla bug entry for this, they've known of it since 2010 when they raised the minimums to 512-bit DH groups.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587407

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#89
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not particularly surprising to the IETF TLS Working Group either, which is at least partially why https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dhe... exists. Minimum 2048 bits, please note. 1024 is not safe - and has not been for quite some time. GCHQ and NSA can definitely eat 1024-bit RSA/DH for breakfast at this point (although it does still take them until lunch). (Those of you still using DSA-10…

> Those of you still using DSA-1024 signing keys on your PGP keyrings should reroll RSA/RSA ones. Can you please explain what you mean? Do you mean "those of you still using DSA-1024 anywhere" or do you mean that there is something we should do "on the PGP keyrings" specifically? Can we control how we maintain the keyrings? Is there some setting for the "key on the keyrings"? I ask since I don't know the state of the…

I mean use of RSA-1024 or DSA-1024 anywhere, for any purpose, is really too small for safe use now.

By "on your keyrings" I mean that quite a few PGP keys in the wild still use DSA-1024 master signing keys with (often much larger) ElGamal encryption subkeys (as DSA was not specified for a long time with keys beyond 2048-bits).

However, DSA-1024/(ElGamal-anything) is not a safe configuration anymore - an attacker who can do a discrete-log on a highly-valued 1024-bit finite field can recover the signing key, and sign things - including software released under that key, or grant themselves new encryption subkeys of any strength.

It may therefore be a good idea to review your PGP keyrings for any master keys you trust which fit that 1024-bits and below criteria (look for 1024D, or below), as they definitely are overdue an upgrade. You may find that a fruitful search, with a few surprises still. For example, to pick one high-profile signing key that would doubtless have been interesting to Nation-State Adversaries and would have been susceptible to such an attack: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xE3BA7... ˙ ͜ʟ˙

The common safe configuration for modern OpenPGP (and upstream GnuPG's current default, I believe) is to use RSA signing keys and RSA encryption subkeys, each of at least 2048 bits - really I'd recommend 3072 or 4096 bits, as use of PGP is not as performance-sensitive as TLS and there is no forward secrecy, so I wouldn't really recommend going much below a ≈128-bit workfactor (equivalent to ≈3072 bit RSA or ≈256-bit elliptic-curve).

Edward Snowden trusted RSA-4096 signing and encryption keys with his life, and that obviously worked out fine for him at the time.

Re: Logjam TLS attack

#90
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest a 768 bit minimum for now, because of Java. As a side note, the latest IcedTea 6/7 release allow 1024-bit DHE but it is not enabled by default.

I say this as a Java developer who thinks Java is on the whole pretty decent: Java is way behind browser vendors when it comes to adding new ciphers and dropping broken ciphers. Between the infrequent releases, the slavish devotion to maintaining backwards-compatibility, the sluggish release distribution, and the general conservative nature of some Java shops when it comes to upgrading, it's just not reasonable to ex…

Ubuntu uses IcedTea I think, which in its latest version supports 1024-bit and 2048-bit DHE on the server side (768-bit DHE is still default though) and up to 4096-bit DHE on the client side.
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