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It's much more complicated than that, but I'm not really interested in discussing this further.
I understand that you think it is more complicated than that, but I don't think it is. Do you remember what happened with Chelsea Manning? Because that is what the GP is referring to. When you get put in military prison, they basically get to do whatever they want to you.
I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?
If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wrong, man.
Snowden was essentially in charge of doing data backup transfers from the pacific to Washington, DC. This means that the NSA trusted him like many of us are trusted every day. The world would descend into chaos pretty quickly if we all decided to start reviewing and passing judgement on the data that we're in charge of, instead of just making sure that it goes where it's supposed to go without incident. No matter how noble his intentions or how despicable the actions of others were, what he did was unethical, illegal and immoral.
It's not about heroes and villains. We have a system of rules that must be enforced equally, for the good of all of us. We can't make exceptions because someone is popular or because we agree with their motives. If a jury of Edward Snowden's peers are so taken by his celebrity and upstanding moral character that they find him not guilty, then so be it. But all of us should be hoping that he comes home to face that jury. Because it's the right thing to do.
I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?
I see him as neither hero nor villain.
He has undertaken certain actions, such as leaking the NSA's illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans, that took a lot of courage and may result in positive changes if we really make use of what was leaked. For this he should be commended. He sacrificed his life in the US for this. Let's do what we can to make it worthwhile.
He has also undertaken certain actions that, in my opinion, do not relate to American civil liberties and could be damaging.
For instance, leaking how the US is spying on foreign nations, which is the whole reason for the NSA to exist. These actions make it easy to cast Snowden as at worst a traitor (not my belief) and at best misguided (which is what I personally believe; he should have been more discriminating in his leaks).
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It doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion on HN/Reddit/etc. I've noticed a couple other people besides myself, although casting it as hero/villain is a bit of a simplification - I think what he did was reckless and I don't think he's been forthcoming about his motives. I've seen a lot of people downplay the comparison between Snowden's actions and Manning's actions. As I see it, Manning took thousands of sensitive…
> sensationalizing the issues in order to milk these documents for as long as possible That's the only way to fight politicians who know how the news-cycle work: just sit tight for a couple of weeks and anything will be forgotten. By "refreshing" every few months, they kept the issue on the agenda. Recent legislative wins in this area are almost entirely due to this strategy: in the first month after release, there w…
That's actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. When Greenwald initially published the short blurb talking about intercepting routers, he didn't say who they were being used against, implying that anyone's router might be intercepted and backdoored - maybe even your own! When the full document was released sometime later, it was revealed that the NSA only used it for hard targets; in this case, targets in Syria[1].
Greenwald does this all the time - he cuts down documents to just a sentence, paragraph or picture. When the full documents come out later on, it turns out that he was selectively quoting to fit with the message he wanted to convey.
I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?
It doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion on HN/Reddit/etc. I've noticed a couple other people besides myself, although casting it as hero/villain is a bit of a simplification - I think what he did was reckless and I don't think he's been forthcoming about his motives. I've seen a lot of people downplay the comparison between Snowden's actions and Manning's actions. As I see it, Manning took thousands of sensitive…
This is true. You'd have have no idea about the full scope of the extent of the NSA's activity and this whole thing would have just blown over. For several weeks after the first leak the US or UK government denied something one day and the next day another leaked document was published showing that they were lying. They would have found a cover up much easier if only one document had been released. Or even if all had been released at once.
Regarding pronouns. Just use she. Manning has made it clear that she thinks of herself as a woman at least give her that.
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Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. You should expect that comments made on political topics are going to get downvoted by people who strongly disagree with you. But moderating your tone and angle of attack on such topics can go a long way towards avoiding them and can even get people who disagree with you to upvote you. Complaining about downvotes is only going to earn you more of them.
Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. No. It isn't. How would you feel if people shut you out of a discussion because they disagreed with you? If someone says something you disagree with, debate them. If they say something factually incorrect, correct them. They may even thank you for it. And guess what, they may end up changing your mind, or correcting a mistake on your part. Actively seek…
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I can't say I see him as a villain, but definitely not a hero. I hold back my judgement, because we are just too far away to know what's going on. He did expose some pretty bad practices to the general public, but asylum in Russia afterwards? Are you kidding me? That just looks super fishy to anyone with at least an ounce of critical thought in his brain. Especially in the context of the Crimea debacle.
What should he have done instead?
I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?
Edward Snowden seems like a good guy, but what he did was wrong. Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances. He made the wrong choices and should be held accountable for them in a court of law. If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wro…
Might want to rephrase that? Or be more specific about which "good" you're talking about and who's "all of us"?
As a swede, I had no idea this happened. Also, it surprises me considering the hunt of Assange began here. I really have to see if there's video of that award ceremony.
I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?
That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US government did not suppress the whistleblowers who came before him. Binney [1], Weibe and Loomis tried to stop the precursors to the NSA's current activities back in 2002, and they paid for it with legal harassment. Those three men were real patriots, and did not dump thousands of documents about intelligence activities that were going on.
Unfortunately, when you don't let pressure bleed off gently in a system things build up until then next opening results in a catastrophic failure.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_%28U.S._intellig...