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A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

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Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#111
post #79

Anyone know how much effort Google is putting into improving Translate? It feels like it hasn't gotten much better over the years even with these first-tier language pairs.

Effort has little to do with it. If you don't have an angle of attack, you can't solve the problem. Humans have years of experience to put a text into context and interpret it.

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#112

Software contractor for Airbus and Rolls-royce here. All safety critical software (every piece of code ran on-board is safety critical the least) in aerospace needs to pass the DO-178 standard [1]. That is far more serious than standard unit tests you are used to in node.js applications. Generally speaking, to develop a piece of code under that standard it takes 20% of time to write the code, and 80% to testing, and…

Every time i read about stuff like that i get mad. Attitude regarding software is just criminal. You wouldn't let internt/inexperienced people design mechanical parts of the plane. Engineers are bound by standards regarding everything. Materials, mechanical couplings, documentation. when i design a machine, i can't scribble it on a napkin and ship it. Why is it acceptable for idiots to write messy, unintelligible cod…

I think you're glorifying engineers here. They're a lot more careful, but they don't have some fairy pixie dust of rigor that makes everything work perfectly.

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#113
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind they don't use C/C++. They use C/C++ with a coding standard (like MISRA), static analysis tools, validated compilers, development processes incorporating change control, documentation, verification and validation, etc. What alternative are you suggesting?

I know that Ada compilers are 100% verified correct but is there really any validated C++ compiler? Which one? AFAIK (partial) assurance in C/C++ can only be handled by additional testing tools, Frama-C for instance. I agree that C/C++ should not be used for security applications. Ada is a much better choice because it was designed for security.

Are you sure that Ada compilers are verified correct?

I'm pretty sure that the only industrial formally verified compiler is CompCert (for C), though I could be wrong. The motivation for CompCert was certainly that Airbus wanted such a compiler.

Ada wouldn't be a better choice simply because it's designed for security. It'd be a better choice if it turned out better in practice. I've read some of the studies that have been done, and I haven't found them convincing.

Requiring additional tools just isn't a problem, if it works well. Don't criticise the process, criticise the result.

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#114
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what would happen if one engine were at 0% and another 100% Planes are designed to fly fine in that situation - it's what you get if one engine breaks down. Now landing the thing with one engine stuck on 100% would be interesting. I guess you could kill the engine somehow - turn off the fuel or pull the fuses.

Planes with four engines are certainly not designed to fly with 3 of 4 engines out...

Indeed, planes are not designed to be flown in that configuration normally, but they are certainly capable of single-engine flight in emergency situations (where the alternative would be "flying like a ton of bricks"). Exhibit A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#115

Software contractor for Airbus and Rolls-royce here. All safety critical software (every piece of code ran on-board is safety critical the least) in aerospace needs to pass the DO-178 standard [1]. That is far more serious than standard unit tests you are used to in node.js applications. Generally speaking, to develop a piece of code under that standard it takes 20% of time to write the code, and 80% to testing, and…

The target catastrophic failure rate there is 1 in a billion hours, which doesn't seem all that high to me... there are over 100000 flights a day[1], and the average length of one is well over an hour, so in one day all the aircraft in the world have accumulated a total of over 2.4 million hours in operation. If each flight was only an hour long, that's 417 days to 1 billion total hours, and if the failure rate reall…

How does 100k flights a day equal 2.4 millions hours of operation if each flight was on average 1 hour?

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#116
post #91

I worked on software for the C-130J military cargo plane. It was before my time, but an earlier model aircraft crashed during a test flight. The crash occurred shortly after take off, and the entire crew was lost. There is a critical time period during a take off when the aircraft is at maximum risk. If an engine fails before rotation (i.e. before the wheels leave the ground) an alert crew can stand on the brakes and…

Your post is substantially correct, with a clarification on rotation speed(Vr) vs takeoff decision speed (V1). There are three relevant speeds for large aircraft. (I'm going to generalize very slightly to keep this short and readable.) V1, Vr, V2. V1 is the takeoff decision speed. An engine failure recognized before reaching V1 is handled by aborting the takeoff. An engine failure recognized after reaching V1 is hand…

Thank you for clarifying my post. I am not a pilot. I am a software engineer (retired). I worked briefly on the C-130J mission computer operating system, then on the maintenance software the ground crews used to maintain the aircraft.

I did not know that there was a situation when a flight crew would continue a take off after an engine failure but before rotation.

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#117
post #47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which programming language is commonly used there? Ada, C, C++, JOVIAL, Asm?

With that kind of coding-to-testing-and-documentation ratio, does it even matter?

Yes. The more the type-system encodes the more the type-checker (in the compiler) proves for you. No matter how much testing you have, nothing will ever come close to proving properties.

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#118
Aircraft manufacturers and operators go through great amounts of effort to avoid single points of failure. E.g. on a twin they overhaul the two engines at different times.

But this is different. I wonder if they need to rethink their approach to software? Four engines, running the same software --> single point of failure.

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#119
post #79

Anyone know how much effort Google is putting into improving Translate? It feels like it hasn't gotten much better over the years even with these first-tier language pairs.

Effort has little to do with it. If you don't have an angle of attack, you can't solve the problem. Humans have years of experience to put a text into context and interpret it.

That would be a bad excuse for not improving even if GT matched the state of the art. But it's doesn't for many/most languages.

Re: A400M Airbus Flier crashed because of software issues

#120
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that Ada compilers are 100% verified correct but is there really any validated C++ compiler? Which one? AFAIK (partial) assurance in C/C++ can only be handled by additional testing tools, Frama-C for instance. I agree that C/C++ should not be used for security applications. Ada is a much better choice because it was designed for security.

Not sure if I'm understanding your question correctly, but Wind River claims their Diab compiler is validated by TÜV NORD and is has been used for stuff up to SIL4. In fact, they ( http://windriver.com/products/product-overviews/PO_Diab_Comp... ) say: Diab Compiler has been a reliable code generation tool for avionics products certified for DO-178B, products for the nuclear market certified to IEC 60880, railway appl…

Is TÜV Nord/Sued known for extensive software checking?
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