Is it legal to not hire someone because they aren't planning to stick around for more than eg 2 years?
Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
21–30 of 77 posts
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#22With all due respect, I think the author has to be careful not to be jaded. While burnout and echo chambers are a real problem in the valley, an engineer who genuinely enjoys short sprints and hackathons, or staying up all night occasionally to prototype something they're excited about is not necessarily a bad hire. Some of my fondest memories are of building something alone, or with colleagues, all night because it…
There's a difference between being willing to stay up all night to finish something and being proud of that kind of thing. I got the impression the author understood the difference.
Right; my point is that some people genuinely enjoy it and are proud of when they have moments of inspiration and end up working late nights to complete something. Some people genuinely work best at night, and I get the impression that if an engineer doesn't fit into the author's specific idea of "work life balance" they are considered "young."
In my experience, that's not necessarily true; some engineers just genuinely enjoy working late at night, and are often proud of the results. Otherwise, they would presumably stop working late at night.
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#23With all due respect, I think the author has to be careful not to be jaded. While burnout and echo chambers are a real problem in the valley, an engineer who genuinely enjoys short sprints and hackathons, or staying up all night occasionally to prototype something they're excited about is not necessarily a bad hire. Some of my fondest memories are of building something alone, or with colleagues, all night because it…
Some people just like to work like that, and that's ok. What's wrong is when you require people to work like that or when people who work like that get ahead disproportionately.
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Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#24The author makes some good points about hiring and working, but what's with this fixation on diversity? If you're a small start up (i.e. 5 or 10 people in his words), your goal should be to build a product and get it to market. And if you happen to be a 30s something white male workaholic who knows a few other 30s something white male workaholics who will work with you to get it out, why shouldn't you just throw dive…
Perhaps because building a diverse workforce that gives everyone opportunities regardless of culture/ethnicity/sex/gender/sexuality is the right thing to do? I mean, having a culture of shipping is great and all, but it shouldn't trump ethical and moral concerns.
"It's ok if our company fails in an entirely preventable way as long as we failed while meeting some arbitrary standard of not hiring people according to the actual demographics of our hiring base."
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#25Is it legal to not hire someone because they aren't planning to stick around for more than eg 2 years?
The fickle are not a protected class in the US, so yes, it is legal.
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#26The author makes some good points about hiring and working, but what's with this fixation on diversity? If you're a small start up (i.e. 5 or 10 people in his words), your goal should be to build a product and get it to market. And if you happen to be a 30s something white male workaholic who knows a few other 30s something white male workaholics who will work with you to get it out, why shouldn't you just throw dive…
Diversity is very useful because companies pivot and having a diverse* team allows you to better consider more options. Note: By diversity I don't mean a team of 30 year old workaholic that graduated from Stanford and then worked at Google/MS for a few years that happen to have different skin colors. I mean a diversity of experience, fresh college student, a 60 year old near retiree, and someone that just spent six m…
How are the people you've described actually going to help a company that is pivoting? You've just claimed that they will without explaining why you think so.
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#27With all due respect, I think the author has to be careful not to be jaded. While burnout and echo chambers are a real problem in the valley, an engineer who genuinely enjoys short sprints and hackathons, or staying up all night occasionally to prototype something they're excited about is not necessarily a bad hire. Some of my fondest memories are of building something alone, or with colleagues, all night because it…
It seems the author is discouraging the practice of staying up all night but not throwing it out entirely. In my reading the article suggests that this shouldn't be the rule but leaves space for times when it may be required, or not so bad. I wonder how the author would respond to having people, say once every few months or so, do an intense overnight hack session. I would guess he'd be fine with it, but suggest keep…
How am engineer chooses to work shouldn't be up to the author. Some people genuinely do their best work late at night. Just as you shouldn't expect everyone to work into the wee hours, you should also not expect everyone to work not to. Work-life balance is a personal choice, and should be up to the individual engineer. Managers who force their idea of balance on others end up with a different kind of groupthink instead.
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#28Point one: if you want me to want to stick around, your company has to have challenges I want to work on over time. Point two: do not underpay me. I will tolerate a fuzz around market rate, and I will adapt to market conditions. I will quit as soon as I can if you systematically undervalue me (see point one: my value will go up). Point three: build a company designed for fifty years, to deliver use and value, and you…
Don't forget to build a culture of expectations that one can last 50 years in. Constant crisis mode is a sure way to lose good people.
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
As an ethnic person who evaluates a company's demographics before joining, I want to say diversity is unnecessary for being financially successful. Working with people who are different can even be difficult. But at the end of the day, what is the founder trying to achieve? His or her personal and broader definition of success might include being inclusive. Anecdote: working in a homogenous environment can suck for m…
I imagine the founder is trying to make a successful company. Being that diversity is correlated with financial performance, it makes sense to try to have a diverse team. On the other hand, you're right in that you can't just throw different people in a room and let them work things out.
> Being that diversity is correlated with financial performance.
Can you back that up?
Re: Fixing Engineering's Loyalty and Longevity Problem
#30Point one: if you want me to want to stick around, your company has to have challenges I want to work on over time. Point two: do not underpay me. I will tolerate a fuzz around market rate, and I will adapt to market conditions. I will quit as soon as I can if you systematically undervalue me (see point one: my value will go up). Point three: build a company designed for fifty years, to deliver use and value, and you…
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