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PyCruise 2016

pycruise.com

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Re: PyCruise 2016

#41

Post by cp9 »

vdaniuk wrote: post #39
cp9 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> censorship saying "don't yell racial epithets" and "don't tell women to make you a sandwich" is not even close to censorship. That's called being a decent person

This is a complex question, don't reduce it to the one dimensional "decent person" angle. If it would be so simple, the CoC would consist of one phrase: "use common sense during communication with others". I understand and emphasize the need for a comfortable experience for all members of the conference. However, I'd like to present you and others with a hypothetical scenario. The CoC states "Harassment includes offe…

but this is a python convention, not a symposium on religion. Under what context would scientology even come up?

Re: PyCruise 2016

#42

Post by vdaniuk »

maxerickson wrote: post #40
vdaniuk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complex question, don't reduce it to the one dimensional "decent person" angle. If it would be so simple, the CoC would consist of one phrase: "use common sense during communication with others". I understand and emphasize the need for a comfortable experience for all members of the conference. However, I'd like to present you and others with a hypothetical scenario. The CoC states "Harassment includes offe…

I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. I guess it would be harder to deal with for someone giving a talk, but contrive away why it is necessary for a talk about python to make simple factual statements about various religions.

>I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror.

Let's not simplify and make a more elaborate analysis.

Ok, so you propose that developers do not talk about:

* religion (scientology)

* gender relations (meta-discussion about CoC, dongle incident, gender pronouns, etc)

* politics (gay rights, abortion, etc )

* some health topics (anti-vaxxers, homeopathy, obesity epidemic etc)

* sexual topics (the ultimate transgression)

Do you not understand the possible chilling effects of such policy? Do you not feel that developers should be able to converse and disagree without fear of being labeled as a CoC offender and a non-decent person?

Aren't these reasonable questions? Please respond without straw-man arguments about sexual harassment, as that is only a subset of the CoC

Re: PyCruise 2016

#43

Post by vdaniuk »

cp9 wrote: post #41
vdaniuk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complex question, don't reduce it to the one dimensional "decent person" angle. If it would be so simple, the CoC would consist of one phrase: "use common sense during communication with others". I understand and emphasize the need for a comfortable experience for all members of the conference. However, I'd like to present you and others with a hypothetical scenario. The CoC states "Harassment includes offe…

but this is a python convention, not a symposium on religion. Under what context would scientology even come up?

Are you being daft?

Lots of people will spend several days together on a cruise ship. They will get acquainted, exchange opinions, drink, have fun, socialize, discuss various topics they are interested in. Developers are human, you know, not some wet-ware apis limited to development/programming topics.

Re: PyCruise 2016

#44

Post by maxerickson »

vdaniuk wrote: post #42
maxerickson wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. I guess it would be harder to deal with for someone giving a talk, but contrive away why it is necessary for a talk about python to make simple factual statements about various religions.

>I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. Let's not simplify and make a more elaborate analysis. Ok, so you propose that developers do not talk about: * religion (scientology) * gender relations (meta-discussion about CoC, dongle incident, gender pronouns, etc) * politics (gay rights, abortion, etc ) * some health to…

Did I already make a straw man argument about sexual harassment?

I don't think a CoC makes such conversations impossible, interested parties won't be offended. Sure, it could easily go too far, with mild transgressions being reported left and right (ya know, instead of the person just demurring or bowing out of the conversation), but I think it is fair to say that you've then discovered that those aren't reasonable, interesting people to be talking to.

What it does is make it impossible for party A to follow party B around, repeatedly calling their beliefs a sham (notice the follow around and repeatedly) and then defend their behavior as appropriate because their statements were truthful and couth (basically, being an ass and then standing on the ceremony of politeness).

If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!

Re: PyCruise 2016

#45

Post by therealkatie »

jokr004 wrote: post #16
throwacc650 wrote: post #6

http://www.pycruise.com/coc.html Am I the only one here who finds these do more harm than good? I specifically avoid cons to boycott this political correctness. Its also a slap in the face to the maturity of python developers. I'm offended to read it. Frankly, I don't want my pic blasted around the world for a joke.

What really bothers me is that the "short version" has 131 words and the "long" one has 127...

Ha! The long version will get MUCH longer once we have the procedures in place. I'm going to need to do some experiments on my upcoming cruise, as well as coordinate with the manager.

Re: PyCruise 2016

#46

Post by vdaniuk »

maxerickson wrote: post #44
vdaniuk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. Let's not simplify and make a more elaborate analysis. Ok, so you propose that developers do not talk about: * religion (scientology) * gender relations (meta-discussion about CoC, dongle incident, gender pronouns, etc) * politics (gay rights, abortion, etc ) * some health to…

Did I already make a straw man argument about sexual harassment? I don't think a CoC makes such conversations impossible, interested parties won't be offended. Sure, it could easily go too far, with mild transgressions being reported left and right (ya know, instead of the person just demurring or bowing out of the conversation), but I think it is fair to say that you've then discovered that those aren't reasonable,…

>If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!

This should be a wake up call for you to reconsider your position.

"If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!"

Can you guess HN reaction to your comment if you would offer same advice to a woman in the context of "sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes"?

Re: PyCruise 2016

#47

Post by maxerickson »

vdaniuk wrote: post #46
maxerickson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did I already make a straw man argument about sexual harassment? I don't think a CoC makes such conversations impossible, interested parties won't be offended. Sure, it could easily go too far, with mild transgressions being reported left and right (ya know, instead of the person just demurring or bowing out of the conversation), but I think it is fair to say that you've then discovered that those aren't reasonable,…

>If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend! This should be a wake up call for you to reconsider your position. "If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!" Can you guess…

If there was a statement published by a group making it clear that the intent of the group was to make sexist, racist and exclusionary jokes, I would be perfectly comfortable suggesting that people uncomfortable with the topics should not attend the group.

I might separately be critical of the group for the exercise, but it would be highly contextual and depend on what their aim was.

Re: PyCruise 2016

#48

Post by throwitup »

cp9 wrote: post #21
throwacc650 wrote: post #6

http://www.pycruise.com/coc.html Am I the only one here who finds these do more harm than good? I specifically avoid cons to boycott this political correctness. Its also a slap in the face to the maturity of python developers. I'm offended to read it. Frankly, I don't want my pic blasted around the world for a joke.

What, precisely, is the problem with this? The entire code of conduct says "be nice, don't be a douchebag." Openness and inclusion is a great thing, and I'm very proud that more cons are working like this (Clojure/west raised a bunch of money to bring underrepresented groups to the con, which is great).

This is important, to ensure a safe space for women and children. How else are we going to encourage more diversity in tech? For far too long, [we] (http://www.riosmauricio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Hoppe...) have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'.

Re: PyCruise 2016

#50

Post by untog »

TorKlingberg wrote: post #31

Have you sorted out internet connection onboard? That is often a problem / very expensive on cruises.

I've long since dreamed of working remotely while taking a boat over to Europe - this is exactly the reason why I haven't. Hopefully one day...
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