No Longer Wanting to Die • Hacker News Board

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#51

Post by pvnick » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:37 PM UTC

This is an important article. Dialectical behavior therapy and other mindfulness-based treatments are rapidly becoming go-to therapeutic methods. While I wasn't depressed or suicidal, about two months ago I started DBT training through a book [1], but used another audio book for mindfulness training [2]. The results have been fairly profound.

The key is "radical acceptance". The universe is perfect in this moment, even if there are things you don't particularly like. You are a worthy and lovable person in this moment, even as there are certain aspects of yourself that you are currently trying to change. That's the dialectical part of dialectical behavior therapy. The idea of radical acceptance is something that can be applied right now, even before learning the skills.

The author talks about shame. Shame convinces us that we are broken, that we aren't good enough. It tends to get passed through generations due to the way we are raised and the way we raise our children. Treating that shame is very effective for convincing us that we are, in fact, good enough. A book called Taming Your Outer Child [3], accompanied by meditations developed by John Bradshaw meant to get one in touch with one's inner child [4], are both very powerful for healing that shame.

Finally, I can't help but add a TED talk by Brene Brown called the Power of Vulnerability [5]. In it she describes the idea of feeling worthy and "enough," and how it is key to happiness and living a fulfilled life. For me, it was helpful because it gave me a concrete idea to work towards.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Dialectical-Behavior-Therapy-Skills-Wo...

[2] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-Eight-Week-Finding-Peace...

[3] http://www.amazon.com/Taming-Your-Outer-Child-Self-Sabotage-...

[4] http://www.audible.com/pd/Self-Development/Home-Coming-Audio...

[5] https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability?langu...

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#52

Post by judk » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:41 PM UTC

msutherl wrote: post #26

rquantz wrote: post #3

As someone who has suffered from moderate but not debilitating depression for much of my adulthood, one thing that has always stood in the way of getting treatment has been finding a damn therapist. Back when I was a broke, insurance-less musician, I went to inexpensive sessions with a student therapist who listened to me talk for a semester but offered very little in the way of help. Shortly after getting insurance…

Totally speculative, but I think this might have something to do with a high demand for good therapists. For instance, I spoke recently with a friend who was studying to practice psychoanalysis and when I asked him if he was looking for clients, he turned me down in such a way as to suggest 'you're not on the level of my clientele' or at least 'I have all the clients I need.' This was in New York where I'm sure there…

It's a classic NY/Jewish joke that the only doctor worth seeing is a doctor whose schedule is fully booked.

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#53

Post by tetraodonpuffer » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:41 PM UTC

stegosaurus wrote: post #13

Treatment for depression is badly handled almost universally... It seems as if people still don't generally understand that it's more than 'feeling a bit sad'. If you break your knee, you will (99.9% chance) go and see a doctor. If the first doctor doesn't fix it, you'll see another. Your knee is broken, unusable, painful and you have a drive to fix it. A more serious injury will generally result in a friend/family m…

I think one of the issues is that often when it comes to depression treatment precedes diagnosis, and treatments affecting the symptoms can make the diagnosis even more difficult.

People going to their GP with a 'I feel depressed' that get told 'well, here's a prescription for some pills, let me know if you feel better with them if not I can give you something else to try' would be the same as if somebody reports a thorny concurrency bug with your embedded multithreaded application and your first response is 'well, let's try to overclock/underclock the CPU to see if it improves things, if not maybe we can try to change the RAM next time'.

It is a lot cheaper for medical services as a whole to have GPs easily prescribe antidepressants and psychoactive drugs in general rather than have psychologists available immediately for anybody who might need them, but it does not make it right.

Others might not share my misgivings but I would only be willing being prescribed a psychoactive drug by a specialist (psychologist/psychiatrist) after a thorough evaluation and non-pharmacological therapy first, and even then very conservatively and after an explanation more objective than "you have a chemical imbalance in your brain" (which chemicals? what imbalance? what should be the normal values?).

There should be much easier and cheaper access to non-pharmacological treatment for mental issues, but maybe to have that one would need it to be destigmatized, which of course is a very slow process and might or might not be possible due to the identification we have with our minds: if our knee hurts we think "my knee hurts, it needs fixing" if our mind hurts we think "I feel bad, I am a worthless person" which is a lot harder to deal with unfortunately.

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#54

Post by a3n » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:42 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #41

Chinmayh wrote: post #7

I am not surprised that a treatment that is so effective to the author has remained unknown to him for so long. I have had feelings of suicide for the last 14 years. I personally hate meeting psychologists, because they can be so unpredictable. Some of the better ones prescribed me medicine, some of the worse ones, told me I had to stop crying and find solutions to my problems, that I was lazy. I was also told becaus…

>having no friends for 14 years can be disruptive WHAT THE UNHOLY FLYING FUCK!? How are you not dead? No actual personal relationships closer than coworker or acquaintance, other than possibly your parents? Near-total personal isolation? FOR 14 YEARS!? That would have broken me in mere months.

What the GP might take from this comment, and possibly what the commenter might have said next, is "Wow, you have real, and serious, problems, no question about it. Problems that should not be dealt with alone. Your problems are serious enough that you should persist in getting help."

And he would be right. It's serious, don't give up, it's very likely that something will work if you give yourself a chance to find it. But you have to look.

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#55

Post by judk » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

hessenwolf wrote: post #24

learnstats2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not religious but I can see the value of prayer. In this case, the therapist could have understood that prayer was not a helpful suggestion - but in general, it's a valuable tool.

When used with caution, perhaps. Separation from a god-belief coincided with the start of my depression, so prayer would be super-not-helpful.

This is why prayer is better as a preventive measure, not a treatment.

Keeping faith feels healthier than trying yo regain it.

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#56

Post by judk » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:45 PM UTC

kvcc01 wrote: post #49

halis wrote: post #37

I had a brother that committed suicide 7 years ago and his story was similar to yours. A history of extreme emotional swings and hospitalization for attempting suicide. I was the best man at his wedding. Once he got married and had three sons I thought that was the end of that part of his life. In my mind, no one with three little boys could ever kill themselves. I was wrong. As soon as his marriage started to fall a…

Your story is very sad, I'm truly sorry. An important risk factor for career-oriented married men is total abdication of social efforts and leaving it to the spouse "to manage the social calendar." In the long run, this causes men's own friendships to atrophy. Then, if your spouse divorces you (or pre-deceases you), you find yourself without any functional support structure, which could trigger depression or worse. I…

This is so important, and one of the subtle reasons that the modern divorce-friendly culture adds dangers to men.

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#57

Post by jmnicolas » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

msutherl wrote: post #26

rquantz wrote: post #3

As someone who has suffered from moderate but not debilitating depression for much of my adulthood, one thing that has always stood in the way of getting treatment has been finding a damn therapist. Back when I was a broke, insurance-less musician, I went to inexpensive sessions with a student therapist who listened to me talk for a semester but offered very little in the way of help. Shortly after getting insurance…

Totally speculative, but I think this might have something to do with a high demand for good therapists. For instance, I spoke recently with a friend who was studying to practice psychoanalysis and when I asked him if he was looking for clients, he turned me down in such a way as to suggest 'you're not on the level of my clientele' or at least 'I have all the clients I need.' This was in New York where I'm sure there…

Or maybe he didn't want a friend as a patient. You're not supposed to bond with your therapist but if you're already a friend it's too late.

So his rejection may have been ethical and not about your worth as a patient.

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#58

Post by judk » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

Chinmayh wrote: post #50

cpncrunch wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some suggestions that worked for me, and may (or may not) help. I find that depression -- at least for me -- has two main causes: [1] Excessive emotional response to bad situations (similar to what the author of this article is experiencing). and: [2] Insufficient motivation/goals/joy. My solution to [1] is twofold: mindfulness and resolution. Be aware that excessive negative emotional responses are bad (as…

Thanks cpncrunch! It feels good to have my problems acknowledged. I will remember your advice. Regarding mindfullness, I am trying to be busy all the time and take no breaks. Either do some activity that doesn't let me analyze an event or crash on the bed. The moment I feel I am getting involved in some topic, I just try to move on.

Remember that busy doesn't have to mean hectic -- taking a walk or seeing a movie with people is a way to stay busy.

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#59

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #43

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>having no friends for 14 years can be disruptive WHAT THE UNHOLY FLYING FUCK!? How are you not dead? No actual personal relationships closer than coworker or acquaintance, other than possibly your parents? Near-total personal isolation? FOR 14 YEARS!? That would have broken me in mere months.

If this is really what you want to say, maybe try to spend a bit more effort saying it.

Effort? The more effort you spend on being shocked and appalled, the falser it appears.

And I am really, properly shocked and appalled. I fail to conceive of how people could ever not be terminally depressed in that situation. I fail to understand how they can keep functioning in that situation.

How can people live that way? Worse: how do we expect people to live that way?

Re: No Longer Wanting to Die

#60

Post by judk » Sun, May 17, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #41

Chinmayh wrote: post #7

I am not surprised that a treatment that is so effective to the author has remained unknown to him for so long. I have had feelings of suicide for the last 14 years. I personally hate meeting psychologists, because they can be so unpredictable. Some of the better ones prescribed me medicine, some of the worse ones, told me I had to stop crying and find solutions to my problems, that I was lazy. I was also told becaus…

>having no friends for 14 years can be disruptive WHAT THE UNHOLY FLYING FUCK!? How are you not dead? No actual personal relationships closer than coworker or acquaintance, other than possibly your parents? Near-total personal isolation? FOR 14 YEARS!? That would have broken me in mere months.

Please don't make people uncomfortable sharing their troubles.