Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#131

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, May 16, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

iaw wrote: post #118

yummyfajitas wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose black students were accepted at far lower rates than their SAT scores suggested they would be. Would you accept the argument that blacks are secretly deficient in some hard to measure way? I'd sure be suspicious of that. In any case, it would be great if Harvard could provide some stats showing exactly how Asians are deficient. Will be interesting.

I think if black students would otherwise be over-represented at the school it would make sense. So Asian's are 5% of the US population [1] but make up 20% of the admitted applicants [2]. While African American's, representing 13% of the country [1] and a shameful legacy of mistreatment make up 12% of admitted applicants [2]. The problem is that admissions isn't based solely on your capabilities as a student at the t…

You are down voted because you dodged the question. The question is a positive, not a normative one: would you believe it if someone claimed blacks were secretly deficient in the way you claim Asians are?

Also, do you have any stats suggesting that the black student with a 520 sat is likely to outperform the Asian with a 780? If I present stats showing that blacks underperforming their sat and Asians over perform, will you favor pro-asian and anti-black discrimination? If not, your reply is a bit dishonest.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#132

Post by iaw » Sat, May 16, 2015, 10:38 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #131

iaw wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if black students would otherwise be over-represented at the school it would make sense. So Asian's are 5% of the US population [1] but make up 20% of the admitted applicants [2]. While African American's, representing 13% of the country [1] and a shameful legacy of mistreatment make up 12% of admitted applicants [2]. The problem is that admissions isn't based solely on your capabilities as a student at the t…

You are down voted because you dodged the question. The question is a positive, not a normative one: would you believe it if someone claimed blacks were secretly deficient in the way you claim Asians are? Also, do you have any stats suggesting that the black student with a 520 sat is likely to outperform the Asian with a 780? If I present stats showing that blacks underperforming their sat and Asians over perform, wi…

Okay, so this concept of 'secret deficiency' is not what I purported, hard to measure does not make something secret. I will explicitly state that Asian applicants, with an admission rate of 4:1 relative to their racial representation in society, will typically start at a higher socio-economic standing relative to blacks (and whites if you want to talk means here).

To give you a positive answer: If blacks were over-represented at Harvard and asians under-represented then I would definitely accept the argument.

Now, as to the concept of 'outperform,' it depends on how 'performance' is defined. I don't care about academic performance as much as I do about long-term social mobility. If you can demonstrate that asians who attend college accomplish even the same amount of social mobility as blacks I would take a difference stance here.

People coming in with ultra-high SAT scores typically wont represent the underprivileged and the underprivileged will typically receive the most benefit (∆-socioeconomically) from the prestigious education out of all applicants.

Can you create a model that admits everyone based solely on GPA and test score while also addressing the challenges faced by the underprivileged? How does social mobility fit into your desire for fairness in admission towards asians? (honestly, not trying to be antagonistic, I'm curious what you think about this because we clearly differ on opinion here but this point is valid)

edit: so that would be 'deficits relative to their established peer group' then.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#133

Post by mplscoder » Sat, May 16, 2015, 10:41 PM UTC

gradstudent wrote: post #22

artnep wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical of the Jewish statistics, which are allegedly based on Hillel documents. Is Harvard really 25% Jewish? Or is that the fraction of domestic students who have some (possibly small) Jewish ancestry? And what's the source that Caltech is 5.5% Jewish? Could that mean 5.5% are actually practicing? Did Hillel actually perform a serious survey/study in these schools, or are these numbers based on some student's…

I assume "Jewish" means self-identifying as Jewish. Practicing or not or the "degree" to which one can be considered Jewish seems irrelevant.

The implication is that Jews are gaining advantages from an ethnic network. Discussing even the existence of such a network is not considered acceptable in the West.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#134

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, May 16, 2015, 10:53 PM UTC

iaw wrote: post #132

yummyfajitas wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are down voted because you dodged the question. The question is a positive, not a normative one: would you believe it if someone claimed blacks were secretly deficient in the way you claim Asians are? Also, do you have any stats suggesting that the black student with a 520 sat is likely to outperform the Asian with a 780? If I present stats showing that blacks underperforming their sat and Asians over perform, wi…

Okay, so this concept of 'secret deficiency' is not what I purported, hard to measure does not make something secret. I will explicitly state that Asian applicants, with an admission rate of 4:1 relative to their racial representation in society, will typically start at a higher socio-economic standing relative to blacks (and whites if you want to talk means here). To give you a positive answer: If blacks were over-r…

You originally claimed that "quite possible that there are other deficits" that Asians suffer. Glad we have established that is unlikely.

If I wanted to address the "challenges" of the underprivileged, I'd simply give a preference to those who can demonstrate it. This is not currently politically favored because even highly privileged blacks underperform poor whites and Asians. (I can dig up stats on that if you like.)

No need to use race as a bad proxy when you can actually measure the underlying variable you claim to care about.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#135

Post by whybroke » Sun, May 17, 2015, 6:09 AM UTC

asdfologist wrote: post #122

whybroke wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article only mentions "very subjective Holistic admissions" and only mentions SAT scores, citing them alone as proof of discrimination. By looking at that nothing else, the article is implying SAT scores should be the sole criterion for admission selection. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the author, I assume he believes it corresponds to talent and post graduate success and these are the reasons for selecting…

The article isn't implying anything. It's reporting on a complaint, and the author isn't taking sides.

Then change the word "article" above to "complaint" if you want. Correct the spelling and the grammar too if you wish. It makes absolutely no difference to the point at hand.

And by the way, the choice of what to and not to report on is itself a bias.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#136

Post by Zigurd » Sun, May 17, 2015, 1:10 PM UTC

shiven wrote: post #67

rayiner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not actually true. The majority of Harvard's class is white. Statistically, if they are biased against Asians, that seat is going to a white person, not a black or Hispanic person. The magnet school where I went to high school has median SAT scores comparable to one of the mid-level Ivies. They got rid of affirmative action. It is now 70% Asian. And that's without accepting any foreign or out of state students…

That's the end result schools like Harvard are trying to avoid. Why? That is the worst kind of discrimination in my book. How is it my fault that I was born smart, worked hard to capitalize on my innate abities and then competed on a standardized test to perform better than folks who just happened to pop out of a different vagina or uterus? Nice way to fuck me for no fault of mine. For those saying not getting into H…

> That is the worst kind of discrimination in my book.

That's only true if SAT score are a good predictor of "success" - however you define that. That's obviously not true for elite institutions since their candidates' SAT score are all bunched up at the top and within the MOE of each other. It's low-resolution. If you want test-based admissions, you'll have to design a test that shows significant differences among the elite schools' applicant pool.

On the hand, just having an "Asian attenuator" is, objectively, racist. The schools that do that will probably claim they just deemphasize applicants who don't have outside activities, which has led to formulaic portfolios of the "right" outside activities among high school students now, because "grades are not enough." Ugh. That's worse than just accepting the top SAT scores.

How can you tell which highly selective universities really have a sophisticated selection process and which are just running ethnic groups through different sized apertures? Elite schools that have legacy preferences have an especially hard job defending their policies.