Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#71

Post by lnkmails » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:02 PM UTC

cbd1984 wrote: post #52

Garbage wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't Indians Asians?

> Aren't Indians Asians? Depends on what variety of English you speak whether the term Asian normally includes Indians or not. For Brits, Asian primarily means "From the Indian Subcontinent" which includes Pakistan for them, IIRC. For Americans, Asian primarily means "From East Asia" which is China, Japan, Korea, and Southeast Asia. Of course, in an academic context, Asian means "Anyone from the Asian Continent" whic…

This confuses the hell out of me as an Indian living in America. Mostly it's me wondering if I am included in the stereotype or not. Otherwise I don't really care.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#72

Post by whybroke » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

So if the Ivy league schools are not actually choosing the best students, wouldn't that mean that Ivy League graduates do worse after graduation than alumni form other schools that don't use the Holistic admission process?

More simply, if the SAT is the perfect determinate for intelligence and energy, and success in life directly relates to intelligence and hard work then the SAT alone should be the prefect predictor of success after graduation regardless of which university you graduate from. Particularly if, as alleged, employers don't care about your school after you've been in the work force for a number of years.

If Ivy League's continue to generate the most successful people then their holistic approach is better at choosing the best candidate than the SAT or...

Or the ivy league diploma works like a tile of nobility to a great degree nearly guaranteeing success in life to all its holders regardless of wit. In this case the argument really is what proportion of races should get these titles, each person looking to advantage their own.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#73

Post by mrowland » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

octottoman wrote: post #46

I'm not even going to post this with my real account. I wonder if we'll even be able to have a discussion about this without me getting downvoted into oblivion. Asians have the highest GPAs and SAT scores, followed by whites, followed by Hispanics, followed by blacks. As such, blacks are given the benefit of the doubt, where as Asians are judged more harshly. Statistically, these groups have differing average IQs in…

There's evidence[1] that there's no difference in intelligence between races at a very young age, and that tested differences only emerge later. This suggests that the IQ differences seen later are a result of societal factors and not something innate.

1: http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/testing_for_rac...

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#74

Post by dominotw » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:08 PM UTC

streptomycin wrote: post #41

Personally I'm not too concerned about this at the undergrad level. So you don't get into Harvard and you have to go to a state school or whatever, that's not really an impediment to your life and career unless you want to become a congressman or a supreme court justice or whatever. Where it does bother me is med school. I've seen several of my Asian friends who were just ridiculously obviously great applicants eithe…

>wow this person has it all - smart, charismatic, hard working, intellectual curiosity, top notch GPA, tons of extracurriculars - this is a no brainer, he'd be a great doctor"

All those don't make a great doctor. I have couple of friends who are currently in med school and are there because they wanted social prestige of being a doctor and not particularly because they have some sort of passion for medicine.

All of them did "volunteering" in school just so they can brag about it in their med school applications, not because they wanted to better the community they live in.

Being a type A prestige seeker doesn't make someone a good doctor.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#75

Post by thrcp971 » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

This focus on affirmative action is sort of like people who say they are against "government handouts", and focus on welfare, while ignoring corporate subsidies.

It's misplaced attention on what "minorities" are (or should be) getting, while overlooking the benefits that the wealthy receive. Also, many people's understanding of the minority groups at Ivy League institutions seems flawed.*

The reason affirmative action exists is only partially as a benefit to minorities. Sure, they benefit (as do some whites and Asians), but affirmative action also acts as cover for legacy benefits in the admissions process.

You see, the day affirmative action falls, lawsuits will be filed to remove legacy preferences. If you're going to get rid of preferences, the argument will say, then get rid of them all! Do you think that wealthy donors will have the incentive to lay heavy money on the endowment if they don't receive some benefit for their children in the form of legacy admissions?

Or, as Sandra Day O'Connor said in the oral arguments in one of the affirmative action cases related to a state school: "I want my sons to go to Stanford" (paraphrased), her alma mater. Did I mention that the Supreme Court justices attended Columbia, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Northwestern?

If you think this is primarily about minorities, think again. Wealthy people will protect themselves, but in this case, people are so focused on race that nothing need be done--legacy clauses continue to fly under the radar.

You can expect to see Affirmative Action end when the wealthy are prepared to give up the benefits their children receive.

How long do you think that will take?

*In terms of African-Americans/Latinos, consider the following:

1 - Many of black students admitted to Harvard aren't black Americans, they are Africans, with test scores and grades on par with Asian-American students.

2 - The first black student graduated from Harvard in 1869. Over the past ~150 years, there have been enough black graduates such that a fair number of black applicants now have the legacy boost to their admissions.

3 - Affirmative Action was meant to rectify the disadvantages minorities received. Such as denying black soldiers access to the GI bill, while white soldiers used it to receive an education. Was that fair? And how much does education impact the future of a family? Multiply that by a few generations and you see why Affirmative Action still exists.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#76

Post by streptomycin » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:12 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #74

streptomycin wrote: post #41

Personally I'm not too concerned about this at the undergrad level. So you don't get into Harvard and you have to go to a state school or whatever, that's not really an impediment to your life and career unless you want to become a congressman or a supreme court justice or whatever. Where it does bother me is med school. I've seen several of my Asian friends who were just ridiculously obviously great applicants eithe…

>wow this person has it all - smart, charismatic, hard working, intellectual curiosity, top notch GPA, tons of extracurriculars - this is a no brainer, he'd be a great doctor" All those don't make a great doctor. I have couple of friends who are currently in med school and are there because they wanted social prestige of being a doctor and not particularly because they have some sort of passion for medicine. All of t…

True, but I have no reason to believe that my Asian and non-Asian friends differed in that regard.

The one I'd most label a "prestige seeker" wasn't Asian and got accepted into a great school right after undergrad, but that's an anecdote within an anecdote. Besides that, I wouldn't come close to calling any of them prestige seekers.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#77

Post by throwawayaway » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:13 PM UTC

octottoman wrote: post #46

I'm not even going to post this with my real account. I wonder if we'll even be able to have a discussion about this without me getting downvoted into oblivion. Asians have the highest GPAs and SAT scores, followed by whites, followed by Hispanics, followed by blacks. As such, blacks are given the benefit of the doubt, where as Asians are judged more harshly. Statistically, these groups have differing average IQs in…

sex and intelligence and race and intelligence have great wikipedia pages, with cite notes. they are easy to get lost in. some topics can't be debated easily. in my own experience the people who tend to do well, work hard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligenc...

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#78

Post by caseysoftware » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:14 PM UTC

streptomycin wrote: post #41

Personally I'm not too concerned about this at the undergrad level. So you don't get into Harvard and you have to go to a state school or whatever, that's not really an impediment to your life and career unless you want to become a congressman or a supreme court justice or whatever. Where it does bother me is med school. I've seen several of my Asian friends who were just ridiculously obviously great applicants eithe…

> Personally I'm not too concerned about this at the undergrad level.

But if you accept it here, why not accept it everywhere?

Either race-based discrimination is bad and should never be done or acceptable in some cases. If it's bad, Harvard (and others) should stop immediately. End of story.

If it's acceptable in "some cases" the next question is: Who determines those cases? And then: Are there a set of fixed criteria or is it a case by case basis? If it's case by case, who empowers and chooses the group making the decisions? What oversight and rules are on this group?

The "some cases" scenario is ripe for malfeasance and influence peddling.. which is just another "good old boys club."

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#79

Post by maratd » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:19 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #59

streptomycin wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wouldn't explain my observations, where excellent non-Asian applicants were shoe-ins on their first try and Asian applicants of the same quality had to try multiple times, some of them never making it in at all. If it was just a numbers issue and not everyone could make it in, you wouldn't expect such a clear racial difference. Of course my anecdotes could just be flukes or I could be misinterpreting the quality…

> Of course my anecdotes could just be flukes or I could be misinterpreting the quality of various candidates. The beauty of commenting on HN is that you don't need to provide data or citations, you can just write down anecdotes (made up or not), and you'll be upvoted by those who like what you say. And you can feel good about it, because the community thinks it has an intellectual side, engaging in deep conversation…

> The beauty of commenting on HN is that you don't need to provide data or citations, you can just write down anecdotes

You didn't finish your thought. The beauty of HN isn't just that. Because immediately after doing that, someone jumps out and points out that you didn't write a research paper backing up your comment on the internet. Thanks for keeping the HN culture alive and strong.

As an aside, if you're genuinely curious about this subject, there has been a lot written about it, a lot of research done into it, and a clear bias has been show against certain minorities which tend to outperform other populations (asians, jews, etc.). If I actually cared about convincing you, I would cite a few, but I don't actually care what you think and this is the internet ... so please use Google.

Re: Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans

#80

Post by streptomycin » Sat, May 16, 2015, 3:20 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #78

streptomycin wrote: post #41

Personally I'm not too concerned about this at the undergrad level. So you don't get into Harvard and you have to go to a state school or whatever, that's not really an impediment to your life and career unless you want to become a congressman or a supreme court justice or whatever. Where it does bother me is med school. I've seen several of my Asian friends who were just ridiculously obviously great applicants eithe…

> Personally I'm not too concerned about this at the undergrad level. But if you accept it here, why not accept it everywhere? Either race-based discrimination is bad and should never be done or acceptable in some cases. If it's bad, Harvard (and others) should stop immediately. End of story. If it's acceptable in "some cases" the next question is: Who determines those cases? And then: Are there a set of fixed criter…

Harvard vs. state school is far less important than med school vs. no med school.

The broader problem with med school is that we should have more med schools accepting more students, and then there wouldn't be such a stark "med school vs. no med school" scenario. So the root cause of that problem isn't racial discrimination, it's just that racial discrimintation in that context might have a much bigger impact due to some other unrelated factors.

Beyond the med school issue, racial discrimination in college admissions is pretty far down the list of issues in society that I'm worried about, because it just doesn't have that big of an impact.