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Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

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Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#21

Post by Test-Grave »

leeny wrote: post #12
dikaiosune wrote: post #3

The idea of a mostly free online CS education seems quite popular on HN. However, I remain skeptical re: employ-ability. Has anyone done any kind of study or survey to see whether these types of rundowns improve a self-taught programmer's change of gainful employment? How does self-taught compare to degree-holding, and how do they both compare to this kind of pseudo-degree? How does one list "cobbled-together CS educ…

I'm an engineer who spent a few years doing recruiting for top Bay Area startups. For the kinds of companies, I recruited for, if your school is top-tier, having that brand on your resume is going to open doors. If it's not, then you might as well go self-taught and save some money because at least then you'll look a bit unique and like someone with grit/initiative. Resumes from n-tier schools very rarely make it pas…

Just out of interest, what is usually considered "top-tier"?

Where is the cutoff after the obvious choices? Georgia Tech? UT Austin? University of Florida? etc. etc.

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#22

Post by bryondowd »

dsacco wrote: post #8
dikaiosune wrote: post #3

The idea of a mostly free online CS education seems quite popular on HN. However, I remain skeptical re: employ-ability. Has anyone done any kind of study or survey to see whether these types of rundowns improve a self-taught programmer's change of gainful employment? How does self-taught compare to degree-holding, and how do they both compare to this kind of pseudo-degree? How does one list "cobbled-together CS educ…

That's not how it works. You take a comprehensive background in CS to learn CS, not for direct employment. The benefit is in being as strong an engineer as someone who went to school (theoretically). In practice, all of the people I know who are successful engineers without a degree simply don't have an "Education" section on their résumé. They will make up for it in the other sections. As for your last question - ye…

Just one example of one of these exceptions is government work. The government requires it's computer scientists to have a degree, and has a rigid pay scale that uses highest degree earned as a factor, along with years of experience, and leaves little wiggle room for any actual demand for your skills.

I self taught for the most part, but had to get that piece of paper anyway, because I have ties to the area I live in and the only reliable employment here is the FAA. Moving or commuting to the nearest big cities just wasn't for me. I'll probably also have to go back and get an MS at some point to be able to progress up the pay scale.

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#23

Post by e12e »

bryondowd wrote: post #22
dsacco wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how it works. You take a comprehensive background in CS to learn CS, not for direct employment. The benefit is in being as strong an engineer as someone who went to school (theoretically). In practice, all of the people I know who are successful engineers without a degree simply don't have an "Education" section on their résumé. They will make up for it in the other sections. As for your last question - ye…

Just one example of one of these exceptions is government work. The government requires it's computer scientists to have a degree, and has a rigid pay scale that uses highest degree earned as a factor, along with years of experience, and leaves little wiggle room for any actual demand for your skills. I self taught for the most part, but had to get that piece of paper anyway, because I have ties to the area I live in…

I certainly hope that remote work, if it's not an option now, will be over the next ten years. It's really sad that we have all this (Internet scale) networking and communication technology, and still demand that people sit like hamsters in little cubicles, getting less done, than if they could sit in a comfortable home office...

Yes, there are great benefits to meeting face-to-face etc, but it's still sad. I mean, if people can build and maintain the kind of organizations you see in EVE online and other MMOs without (mostly) meeting -- why not for work?

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#24

Post by ebiester »

dikaiosune wrote: post #3

The idea of a mostly free online CS education seems quite popular on HN. However, I remain skeptical re: employ-ability. Has anyone done any kind of study or survey to see whether these types of rundowns improve a self-taught programmer's change of gainful employment? How does self-taught compare to degree-holding, and how do they both compare to this kind of pseudo-degree? How does one list "cobbled-together CS educ…

There are a lot of people getting hired after these 3 month crash courses who are actually self-motivated to keep learning. Others moved up from the help desk when they were able to solve a problem that impressed someone in IT. They have the natural skill and the first (or second, or third) job but have major gaps in their skillset.

Then, there are people who get CS degrees but didn't get everything they really needed. They have the job, but are running up against boundaries of their knowledge.

Then, there are some precocious 12 year olds who just don't have access to the information yet. They may eventually get into college CS but need a little help in the presentation of the information. I wish I would have had this at 12! The Pascal compiler wasn't enough for me past the fooling around and small problems I fixed. I didn't have the resources to ask people when I got stuck, so I gave up until I made it to college.

It isn't just about zero to google.

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#25

Post by bryondowd »

e12e wrote: post #23
bryondowd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one example of one of these exceptions is government work. The government requires it's computer scientists to have a degree, and has a rigid pay scale that uses highest degree earned as a factor, along with years of experience, and leaves little wiggle room for any actual demand for your skills. I self taught for the most part, but had to get that piece of paper anyway, because I have ties to the area I live in…

I certainly hope that remote work, if it's not an option now, will be over the next ten years. It's really sad that we have all this (Internet scale) networking and communication technology, and still demand that people sit like hamsters in little cubicles, getting less done, than if they could sit in a comfortable home office... Yes, there are great benefits to meeting face-to-face etc, but it's still sad. I mean, i…

Yeah, it would be nice if there were more remote options, especially outside the area of web development, which never really got my interest.

Federal employees here seem to get some leeway with regards to actually coming in versus working from home, which is encouraging, but contract employees are on a tighter leash (or straight up second class citizens, depending who you ask). But there are plenty of things we do that just couldn't be efficient remotely, since there's a lot of custom hardware and lab-testing involved.

Btw, I'm not really complaining. Working on air traffic control systems is a pretty damn cool career, imo. It's fun to make a small stretch and answer, "What do you do?" with, "Oh, I just keep planes in the air."

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#26

Post by Spoom »

Test-Grave wrote: post #21
leeny wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an engineer who spent a few years doing recruiting for top Bay Area startups. For the kinds of companies, I recruited for, if your school is top-tier, having that brand on your resume is going to open doors. If it's not, then you might as well go self-taught and save some money because at least then you'll look a bit unique and like someone with grit/initiative. Resumes from n-tier schools very rarely make it pas…

Just out of interest, what is usually considered "top-tier"? Where is the cutoff after the obvious choices? Georgia Tech? UT Austin? University of Florida? etc. etc.

My impression is, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Waterloo, full stop.

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#27

Post by jnem »

wlesieutre wrote: post #6
jnem wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have similar concerns. From my experience working in the biz, many companies job opportunity are hidden behind a thick wall of HR and corporate recruiters. I was interviewed by one just a few weeks ago, and I was left feeling pretty dirty afterwards. The person who interviewed me had no way to verify my claims, knowledge, or understanding of the industry. I have a degree or two, but none in CS, though Ive been self…

I expect that it makes networking and work experience a lot more important. A friend of mine who taught himself programming tells me that his interviews tend to start with either "A literature degree?" or "It looks like you're a self-taught programmer." So you at least get a predictable icebreaker out of it. The part that it makes tough is getting that interview. If it's a company that bothers to click your resume's…

Agreed, networking is important, and Ive done a bit of that, which is how I got my foot in for the initial interview. Once there though, it was scary how little the interviewer knew about the position they were supposed to be recruiting for. They did have me sign a right to represent form for the job (which was a 9 month contract position at a company that starts with an I and ends with L) but i never did receive any follow up from them.

My concern is in situations like the above, the ONLY way such a recruiter can qualify you is based on value of your degree parameter. Which means if the company you are applying for goes the traditional big-bizz HR approach, go get a degree in CS from a Brand-name institution. Otherwise, focus your efforts on getting interviews with whomever your direct supervisor will be. That however, is easier said than done.

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#28

Post by fapjacks »

Spoom wrote: post #26
Test-Grave wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of interest, what is usually considered "top-tier"? Where is the cutoff after the obvious choices? Georgia Tech? UT Austin? University of Florida? etc. etc.

My impression is, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Waterloo, full stop.

For CS? Add Carnagie Mellon and Caltech. THEN full stop.

Re: Obtaining a Thorough CS Background Online

#29

Post by fapjacks »

carc wrote: post #18

This is fantastic. I switched careers a couple year ago (used to be a CPA) and am now a very happy software engineer at a tech company. These sorts of resources are great. I want to iterate, though, for people without CS degrees that doing something like this will NOT make it easier for you to get a software engineer position in and of itself. The skills you learn from things like this will though - so use this to be…

Well, without a piece of paper from some third party certifying they think you know CS, and then also without having stuff on Github, you're basically just asking anyone to take you at your word that you're a programmer. I interview regularly for fun and I do not have a degree, only projects on Github, and I have never once been asked about a CS education or background. In fact, I just went to an interview where they didn't even ask for my resume, just a link to my Github. This is really the meat of it: Being able to prove that you are a programmer is even more valuable than have a piece of paper from some third party certifying that they think you are a programmer. And this is really the weakness of a degree: Those universities cannot prove that you are a programmer. They can only certify that they made "teaching" of some of the knowledge base available to the person. This is less useful than a Github full of source code and a regular commit history, though less useless than a resume full of personal claims. In my social circles, I'm the guy everybody knows as the lifelong programmer. So there are late-bloomers that come to me asking for advice. I tell them to just start slapping shitty code into a Github account, and frankly it's the best thing they could do for themselves if they really want a job writing software.
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