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The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

nytimes.com

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Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#101

Post by dionidium »

Clanan wrote: post #65
Omniusaspirer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a subreddit dedicated to this idea, although I warn you it's largely terrible. http://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence Basically the only reason most people struggle financially in the US is due to their own financial illiteracy and living above their means. If you manage not to fall victim to either of those then you can save a substantial portion of your income towards a very early retirement should y…

As a parent I've found that "kids are pricey" can easily stem from financial illiteracy as well. It's easier than people think to have kids and not blow the budget. Don't go crazy on Christmas gifts, limit eating out, buy secondhand clothes (which are usually in great condition), etc. We always chuckle when our friends talk about how expensive their kids are, right before mentioning their three cross-country trips. F…

People in this thread keep using the word literacy to criticize mildly questionable spending. Financially literate people overspend on vacations, too! Let's not start applying the illiterate label to everyone who has ever spent more than they should on something.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#102

Post by ashark »

__abc wrote: post #78
Clanan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent I've found that "kids are pricey" can easily stem from financial illiteracy as well. It's easier than people think to have kids and not blow the budget. Don't go crazy on Christmas gifts, limit eating out, buy secondhand clothes (which are usually in great condition), etc. We always chuckle when our friends talk about how expensive their kids are, right before mentioning their three cross-country trips. F…

THIS! I have two kids, and it's fairly easy (at least before starting school / sports) 1 - Second hands clothes, toys, etc are super cheap 1.1 - Hand me down across the extended family and your family (seriously, they grow out of it in minutes, try not to buy it new) 2 - Your kids don't need a lot of toys and crayons and paper are cheap 3 - GO TO THE LIBRARY 4 - Parks are really fun, and really cheap, as in free Wher…

Most places, the areas with the "10/10" public schools cost more to live in, between property taxes and higher purchase prices for houses (because the schools are good, so demand is high). They may also be farther from where the jobs are (more often than not, I'd guess), unless you want to pay even more for both prime location and good schools, assuming such a thing even exists where you live. Higher transportation costs, more time commuting.

You pay either way. Picking the nicer location is probably cheaper, but I wouldn't bet on that always being the case. It's difficult to quantify the costs of location to compare the two.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#103

Post by sukilot »

BurnWhenRead wrote: post #81
matthewmacleod wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that a pretty suspect statement, and I'm not sure I've ever encountered any man who's decided to avoid starting a family for that reason.

I am one of those people, to an extent. Or rather, I largely avoid the dating scene because of the dangers involved. Up to and including paying child support for someone who isn't even yours. Or paying child support for a child resulting from you being raped. And there's no way around it currently. Currently, even if both parties agree , there's no way for them to actually form a binding agreement. It's gotten to the…

Prenuptials apply to the spouses, not children , who obviously cannot sign them. Are you saying that women are not held to prenup agreements, or that men forget that they cannot sign a prenup with their future children?

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#104

Post by angersock »

beat wrote: post #16
bluedino wrote: post #8

The author doesn't even mention how many more women are in the workforce as compared to 1950. The main loss here is the exodus of manufacturing jobs. No simple way around it.

Loss of farming jobs is actually a much bigger factor than loss of manufacturing. Farm-related employment has dropped massively. In 1880, 49% of Americans worked on farms. Today, it's just 2%.

I'd like to see that as a function of land and population.

I'm willing to wager that, because there's only so much land and crops, there's only so much demand for labor--unless you want like one person per bushel or something silly. Meanwhile, the rest of the population continued to grow.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#105

Post by hrehhf »

caseysoftware wrote: post #77
TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a student, I've gotten laughed at for having a prepaid (and cheap) cell phone. Saves me several hundred a year, easily. Ditto: I don't drink, and I don't have a car. And I still struggle. Don't know how some students do it.

The good news is that if you're working in STEM, this is probably the worst time you'll ever have.

"probably" may be true, but do not listen to this comment and become complacent! Struggle in work/school will be necessary for a long time to get out of being poor and comments like this make it sound like its as simple as getting a STEM degree or job. Its not.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#107

Post by sukilot »

tomjen3 wrote: post #79
jkyle wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidence of illegal behavior is generally determined through polling. Basically, you ask people anonymously and they're more honest. For example "Have you smoked marijuana in the last year?" There are various biases that impact the validity and reliability and there are methods for accounting for those biases. Rates of criminal behavior in the population is a very active and mature area of research. Another method i…

That is very interesting, but you would need to know the level of trust the groups have compared to how strong their norms for not breaking the law would be in order to normalize the results (e.g are people of one minority group less likely to trust strangers compared to the majority?) which are factors that you can't know.

Yes, but by the same token, the fairness of he judicial system is also subject to factors you can't know. It is unreasonable to assume hat the crim justice system Is an island of unbiased rationality, considering the steady stream of corruption revelations.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#108

Post by Bahamut »

geebee wrote: post #91
Clanan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent I've found that "kids are pricey" can easily stem from financial illiteracy as well. It's easier than people think to have kids and not blow the budget. Don't go crazy on Christmas gifts, limit eating out, buy secondhand clothes (which are usually in great condition), etc. We always chuckle when our friends talk about how expensive their kids are, right before mentioning their three cross-country trips. F…

I'm not going to disagree, since your advice is good. If you're having trouble financially, don't go crazy on Christmas gifts, eat out all the time, or buy expensive clothes. But keep in mind, in SF, a 3br house or apartment south of 280 (a bit blighted in spots, but far safer than its reputation) starts at 800K, and really, unless you're at the outskirts and buying a property in need of considerable work, you're pro…

In Northern Virginia, you can get a pretty nice house in Fairfax for $500k - the SF and Silicon Valley market is special for its terribleness (NY too).

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#109

Post by wch »

Clanan wrote: post #65
Omniusaspirer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a subreddit dedicated to this idea, although I warn you it's largely terrible. http://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence Basically the only reason most people struggle financially in the US is due to their own financial illiteracy and living above their means. If you manage not to fall victim to either of those then you can save a substantial portion of your income towards a very early retirement should y…

As a parent I've found that "kids are pricey" can easily stem from financial illiteracy as well. It's easier than people think to have kids and not blow the budget. Don't go crazy on Christmas gifts, limit eating out, buy secondhand clothes (which are usually in great condition), etc. We always chuckle when our friends talk about how expensive their kids are, right before mentioning their three cross-country trips. F…

There are people who waste money on toys, eating out, clothes and all that -- but those expenses pale in comparison to the really big costs:

- Child care (necessary if both parents work or there's just one parent)

- Larger apartment/house, in an area with good schools

My wife and I live in a large midwestern city. Prior to having kids, we had more than enough space in a 2-bedroom apartment. We had in the past (as students) lived comfortably on less than $20k each a year.

Putting an infant in a day care costs between $1200 and $1600 here. It drops a few hundred when the baby moves into the toddler room, and a few hundred more when the toddler moves into the older kids' room. With two kids in day care (an infant and an older kid), that still costs in the ballpark of $2000-2500 per month.

The 2-bedroom apartment is too small for 2 adults plus 2 children, plus visiting family members who help with kids, and moving to a bigger place in an area with good schools also increases monthly costs substantially.

Even if you're not spending money frivolously, having kids is expensive compared to not having them.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

#110

Post by belorn »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #3
Retric wrote: post #2

What about prison? It's ~1% of the adult populaion.

(People in the military, prison and institutions are excluded from these figures.)

Why isn't the military counted as part of the work force? its not like people are drafted into it in the US.
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