The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills • Hacker News Board

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#341

Post by smorrow » Fri, May 15, 2015, 11:33 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #320

smorrow wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have been exaggerating when I said mental health+, but it's still a fact that men still aren't getting laid as much as they would ideally like to=. I mean, how would you even know? Because they aren't begging for it constantly? Really, I can tell you that that's more due to being polite and knowing in advance that the answer will be no. + I term I use in a much broader sense internally, since I don't know any b…

If you don't think that the woman you are with has a high enough sex drive for you then you should probably discuss it with her or find someone more compatible with your needs. If you can't be satisfied with sex with only one woman the you are free to lead a polyamorist lifestyle if you wish. It's the generalisations across entire genders and the implied sexism that come across as childish. Not to mention your bizarr…

> It's the generalisations across entire genders

Do you take everyone so literally?

> horrific attitudes to rape.

... I'd roll my eyes, but I'm not American enough. What's being discussed is barely even rape at all, except in some broad, all-encompassing dictionary-style definition of the word. Something falling under the broadest possible definition of the word rape doesn't automatically mean that it's rape in the sense of a male assaulting and raping someone.

> women are people with varying tastes and drives just as much as men are.

Yes, and there's barely a person alive that doesn't know this; see point #1.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#342

Post by MrBuddyCasino » Fri, May 15, 2015, 12:27 PM UTC

johnny22 wrote: post #338

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's okay to express your feelings. It's okay to be vulnerable. I've thought about this a lot, and I'm afraid its not that simple. In competitive, male societies where a certain bluntness is socially accepted, you cannot unilaterally change the rules. You'll be a welcome victim to the schoolyard bullies. You'll be setting up your son for psychological damage. Having friends, doing sports, enjoying nature, taking ca…

I can't believe you're serious.

If you disagree, please elaborate - its hard to have a discussion based on expressions of moral outrage.

My statement seems controversial, and was at one point even downvoted below zero. I'd be interested to hear the counter-arguments, but alas, the HN downvote-to-disagree anti-pattern is in full effect, so I'll never know.

I said what I said because it reflects the experiences that I've made. Of all the people I can think of, including me, those that got tougher and worked hard on improving themselves, changed their lives for the better. If there is another way, I haven't seen it yet.

In the end, you can only adapt to the society you live in, or must choose to live elsewhere. Becoming an outsider or moving to the woods is an adaption, too. There is a wide range of norms and cultures worldwide, and those with a very masculine culture (e.g. Japan) are often economically successful, but can be harsh on men due to the competitive pressure.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#343

Post by Lawtonfogle » Fri, May 15, 2015, 1:11 PM UTC

gress wrote: post #330

airtonix wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, just no. You're asking people to act weak and unstable. You're promoting a path that leads to unconscious confidence in decisions you make. Every decision is wrong, but it's your job as the one who has their shit together in the shit-storm to choose the least fucked up choice.

Expressing emotions doesn't imply weakness or instability.

The problem is that socially it is seen as doing such even if it doesn't actually.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#344

Post by hoopd » Fri, May 15, 2015, 1:23 PM UTC

bakhy wrote: post #334

hoopd wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out that feminism has been damaging to men and the male psyche is accurate, your movement has had collateral damage and you need to deal with that. It's impossibile to stand up for masculinity as being a natural and good thing without butting heads with THE group who says masculinity is an overvalued social construct that needs to be destroyed. On victimhood, it's completely childish for a movement to spend…

First of all, hypocrisy again - you say blaming patriarchy is lame, "default boogeyman" and so on, but you completely fail to see you use feminism in exactly the same way. MRAs typically blame EVERYTHING on feminism. Any kind of problem men face today must somehow be caused by feminism, there is rarely any other explanation that is acceptable. Second, I did not say that pointing out problems men face is stupid, far f…

I tried to make it clear that I think feminism should only be blamed for things it's responsible for. Really.

Victimhood is almost always relative and I've spent my entire life hearing about how society victimizes females as compared to males, you can't just rewrite the history of the movement when it's convenient.

In fact if you listen to them these evil MRAs are saying the exact same thing you are right now, that all the victim playing of feminism is disrupting any societal discussion of men's problems. The day feminism stops caricaturizing men in order to talk about female victimhood is the day you get to complain about MRAs entering the conversation. If you think feminism doesn't misrepresent men then you're part of the problem being fought against.

And when I suggested you read comments more charitably it's because I thought you weren't and it was causing you to miss the point. It wasn't just to hurt your feelings, this isn't reddit.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#345

Post by facepalm » Fri, May 15, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

bakhy wrote: post #101

M8 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we are kinda equal" Which gender legally gets the kids, house and alimony in +90% of divorces?

We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…

It couldn't have anything to do with women risking their lives for 9 months carrying the child to birth in their bellies? Or that they tend to breastfeed their children for months after birth, which men simply can not do?

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#346

Post by facepalm » Fri, May 15, 2015, 3:10 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #135

facepalm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children. What can men do? If they can't find a way to make themselves useful, what is their place?

>> The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children. Yes, I frequently read articles in the press about women on welfare with large families, and how amazing they are for having children, and how privileged we all are to contribute to their upkeep! I am not defined by my use to society. I live my life for me and the people I love, my place is what I make it, not what 'so…

Another thought on welfare moms: if you are a welfare mom, you still have your children to care for, which makes you useful. What does a man on welfare have to make himself feel useful?

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#347

Post by bakhy » Fri, May 15, 2015, 3:19 PM UTC

hoopd wrote: post #344

bakhy wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, hypocrisy again - you say blaming patriarchy is lame, "default boogeyman" and so on, but you completely fail to see you use feminism in exactly the same way. MRAs typically blame EVERYTHING on feminism. Any kind of problem men face today must somehow be caused by feminism, there is rarely any other explanation that is acceptable. Second, I did not say that pointing out problems men face is stupid, far f…

I tried to make it clear that I think feminism should only be blamed for things it's responsible for. Really. Victimhood is almost always relative and I've spent my entire life hearing about how society victimizes females as compared to males , you can't just rewrite the history of the movement when it's convenient. In fact if you listen to them these evil MRAs are saying the exact same thing you are right now, that…

> ...I've spent my entire life hearing about how society victimizes females as compared to males...

Maybe that's what you heard from it, but it's not the position of feminism that, e.g., rape is bad merely because women get raped more than men. Rape is bad, period. The point is that the problem affects women disproportionately more, and in the past men could get away with it without any punishment. So, women need, and have fought for, extra protection. And of course, for the general dismantling of the power imbalance between men and women. Why some men immediately internalize this, and feel like someone just called all men rapists and woman haters is really beyond me.

In any case, we will probably have to agree to disagree. In my experience, MRA is not really about anything else than feminism. There are some who actually care about the specific injustices faced by men, and some who have endured them directly (and you may be shocked but I am a feminist and still support them...). But the MRA movement is really just using these things as tools in a fight purely against feminism. Because, it's always feminism. Nothing else can be at fault but feminism. Every male problem is either caused by feminists, or feminists are indirectly to blame because they didn't fix it already (?!). Because, yeah, fuck all the rapes, domestic violence and shit, the most important thing all feminists have to care about when fighting these injustices is - men, of course! :D

A lot of feminists probably go to far, and dismiss valid concerns too easily, but to take that as a reason to focus on feminism, and to constantly negate the whole of feminism makes it clear that the MRA movement, for the most part, is just anti-feminism and nothing more. That the problems men face are being used as a fig leaf to cover up simple misogyny.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#348

Post by bakhy » Fri, May 15, 2015, 3:22 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #346

Nursie wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children. Yes, I frequently read articles in the press about women on welfare with large families, and how amazing they are for having children, and how privileged we all are to contribute to their upkeep! I am not defined by my use to society. I live my life for me and the people I love, my place is what I make it, not what 'so…

Another thought on welfare moms: if you are a welfare mom, you still have your children to care for, which makes you useful. What does a man on welfare have to make himself feel useful?

Just stop, dude. This is not elementary algebra, these are people we are talking about. Go out and meet some.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#349

Post by bakhy » Fri, May 15, 2015, 3:30 PM UTC

marrs wrote: post #272

bakhy wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fail to grasp one crucial distinction - patriarchy is not a term that labels all men. It is a system. The crimes of patriarchy are not automatically the fault of all men. It is perfectly possible to be a man and against patriarchy (you're speaking with one right now, actually). As for "reprogramming society" - that's just spreading FUD. Society is not a piece of stone, it changes constantly. And far from it that…

Are you really saying "all of society's problems exist because men run everything" whilst also saying "all of society's accomplishments are despite men running everything"? I don't mean to put words into your mouth but that is how your statements read to me. OK, having read more of this discussion, I don't think that's what you're saying. But what do you mean by patriarchy? What do you mean by its crimes?

My point has nothing to do with the specifics, I was merely pointing out that attacking patriarchy is not an attack against all men. That should be pretty obvious, but hey...

I don't know if I can give you a quality definition of patriarchy, I am sure you can google that yourself, if you are actually interested. If you just want me to make some silly semantic mistake and then bicker about it, then this will get boring soon...

I would say in short that patriarchy is a form of societal organization where men dominate. As the bloody word says itself already.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#350

Post by bakhy » Fri, May 15, 2015, 3:43 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #345

bakhy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…

It couldn't have anything to do with women risking their lives for 9 months carrying the child to birth in their bellies? Or that they tend to breastfeed their children for months after birth, which men simply can not do?

Sure, of course. It's probably both. But you do understand that men get discriminated in child custody trials even if the child is already well weened off the tit?