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Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

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Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#61

Post by [deleted] »

thelambentonion wrote: post #49
jkestner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that the field moves faster than colleges. Kids who might be looking for a path to that career that they're aware of, try their best to find a fit. Computer Science is what all the job postings seem to want.

In my opinion, the problem is that people going into these degree programs (CS included) assuming that they will come out prepared to work in those fields. It seems that many people who are going for a degree in CS are really looking for vocational education in software development [0]. That kind of education can move faster and track changes in the field better than a full-fledged degree program. [0] And it looks li…

[deleted]

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#62

Post by Foy »

TTPrograms wrote: post #38
jowiar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be blaming the student. Did I know as a 17-year-old applying to college what the hell the difference was? No. Did I study CS? Yes. Was it the right decision? Probably not (though I did stay in it). And I had about every advantage in the world of being exposed to programming from when I was 5 or 6. Maybe the craziest part of the US college system, and technical fields in particular, is that most people don…

If one is not prepared to take an active role in identifying their course of study and desired path of education I would suggest that that person should wait to go to college. Not that anyone does.

High school guidance counselors strongly encourage students into pursuing university.

When I was in high school it didn't seem like there even was a viable option other than Computer Science, which I know now is largely unrelated to most software development. Of course, you could argue I didn't do my due diligence, but it was the guidance counselor's job to guide me and I trusted them implicitly. In retrospect, that in and of itself taught me a valuable lesson about critical thinking.

Everyone I've talked to has said they haven't used a single bit of calculus in a professional capacity since graduating. I may be succumbing to confirmation bias, but I've never heard to the contrary.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#63

Post by Goladus »

the_af wrote: post #58
Goladus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* This paragraph is telling:* What it tells me is that the journalist is using rhetoric to persuade you into thinking that the computer science program is badly designed, failing to serve poor students like Becca. This writer's only sources for information about the computer science curriculum appear to be Becca and Dr. Justin Yi, the department chair. Your quote is from Yi, who follows up with this paragraph: That’s…

I think we're in agreement, except for a minor point: > which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer". You can of course be a computer scientists and a developer (I'd even say that's an excellent choice), but the point is that a CS education isn't a "programming" education. If you approach CS because you want to program (say, you want to be a web developer, you are in a hurry to…

the point is that a CS education isn't a "programming" education.

I really disagree. Computer Science is supposed to be a comprehensive, top-to-bottom foundation for working with computers-- either solving problems with them or advancing knowledge and understanding about them. Programming is a fundamental tool for working with computers. You won't get a worthwhile computer science degree without learning to program (not that bad programs can't exist, or that it's not possible to squeak by with passing grades without learning anything).

Computer science doesn't just cover theory and math, but algorithms, data structures, computer architecture, operating systems, networks, and compilers.

I would agree that computer science has a more general focus than "programming." I would also agree that a 4-year investment in a bachelor degree might not always be cost-effective or the best use of your time.

But those caveats aside, A Computer Science degree should be a fine foundation for software development.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#64

Post by jowiar »

TTPrograms wrote: post #59
jkestner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does take more support from family and counselors, because it's swimming against the current. It's easy to jump right into college when everyone's drilled it into your head that you need to go, regardless of your particular personality/goals/stage in life.

That effect to not go against the grain should be more extreme in communities where 99.9% of students attend college. Regardless, the issue isn't to pick your path exactly before you go. The point is to be prepared to dedicate some marginal effort to it either at the beginning or before. You really think it's on the schools to tell students what they should learn or what degree they should get? Certainly people have…

It depends on the school -- Some schools have a broader general education focus, with less major-focused work, and enough of an opportunity to explore before declaring a major.

Others require you to pretty much declare from day one, and it might well be another $50,000 if you get it wrong.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#65

Post by jkestner »

TTPrograms wrote: post #59
jkestner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does take more support from family and counselors, because it's swimming against the current. It's easy to jump right into college when everyone's drilled it into your head that you need to go, regardless of your particular personality/goals/stage in life.

That effect to not go against the grain should be more extreme in communities where 99.9% of students attend college. Regardless, the issue isn't to pick your path exactly before you go. The point is to be prepared to dedicate some marginal effort to it either at the beginning or before. You really think it's on the schools to tell students what they should learn or what degree they should get? Certainly people have…

> You really think it's on the schools to tell students what they should learn or what degree they should get?

No, not me. I agree with you that we've pushed the age of adulthood too far out.

But when the mistake you learn from comes with crippling debt, it is on us to guide kids to make low-consequence mistakes before the big ones. That's why I suggest we encourage more real-world exposure with internships, co-op programs, shitty jobs first. We need to foster the environment that allows kids to actually critically think about their future instead of shoving them towards it, and we need to practice the meritocracy we preach by looking past degrees to hire people.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#66

Post by Goladus »

the_af wrote: post #40
jowiar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be blaming the student. Did I know as a 17-year-old applying to college what the hell the difference was? No. Did I study CS? Yes. Was it the right decision? Probably not (though I did stay in it). And I had about every advantage in the world of being exposed to programming from when I was 5 or 6. Maybe the craziest part of the US college system, and technical fields in particular, is that most people don…

I'm not from the US, and I was lucky because I knew what I was getting into when I started a CS education. However, it's true even in my country that many students commit this mistake (even with other career paths unrelated to CS, it's pretty common for students to drop out because it wasn't what they expected). I'm not truly blaming the student. It's an honest mistake to make. However, I see this same mistake (CS ==…

> However, I see this same mistake (CS == programming) propagated online by people who should know better.

"CS != Programming" is also a mistake. An over-generalization, at best. A good CS program will involve a lot of programming and be a great foundation for becoming a programmer.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#67

Post by the_af »

Goladus wrote: post #66
the_af wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from the US, and I was lucky because I knew what I was getting into when I started a CS education. However, it's true even in my country that many students commit this mistake (even with other career paths unrelated to CS, it's pretty common for students to drop out because it wasn't what they expected). I'm not truly blaming the student. It's an honest mistake to make. However, I see this same mistake (CS ==…

> However, I see this same mistake (CS == programming) propagated online by people who should know better. "CS != Programming" is also a mistake. An over-generalization, at best. A good CS program will involve a lot of programming and be a great foundation for becoming a programmer.

Yes, there is some degree of generalization involved, needed to discuss this in a forum thread, but in my opinion one of the two mistakes is way more serious. I believe you understand what I meant.

Indeed, a good CS program is a great foundation for becoming a programmer. But CS is not about programming, at least not in the sense that gets discussed when Spolsky laments the "perils of Java Schools". Also, a CS researcher may not even be particularly interested in actual programming languages, preferring to focus on theoretical matters. Some of them are barely distinguishable from applied mathematicians.

People who want to learn programming may get impatient when they are taught about graph theory, lambda calculus, big-O, Turing machines, algebra, calculus, statistics, computability, etc. Not saying they necessarily will, and in fact all of this may surprise them in a good way, but many times -- which is what you often read in this kind of articles -- they become frustrated: "what is this nonsense? Why don't they teach $LANGUAGE? Everyone is using $LANGUAGE! All these CS types live in their ivory tower and don't even understand what is being used to build $MOBILE_PLATFORM apps! None of this helps me get my startup running!". The conclusion is obvious: academia "doesn't get" the real world.

In reality, however, it's more of a case of mismatched expectations. CS is -- if you look at it with squinty eyes -- a kind of applied mathematics; one in which you get to play with both idealized and real-world computers. Ok, that's another oversimplification, but it's no coincidence the founding fathers (and mothers :P) of CS were mathematicians, logicians, physicists, and the like. They would scoff at the notion that "you don't need Calculus".

It's perfectly fine to find the research/theoretical aspect of computers uninteresting. It's perfectly fine to want to learn Ruby/C++/whatever and just build your site. But it's not fine to go into CS, and find it too theoretical because they don't just teach you Python (or whatever language is currently being used in the real world), or force you to sit through algebra. In that case, you simply picked the wrong career path, and it's not academia's fault.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#68

Post by crimsonalucard »

Yes computer science is "different" from software engineering, but not all computer science curriculums are purely theoretical. At least in ucla, all theoretical classes have several hands on labs. I finished UCLA as an electrical engineer but the computer science courses I took taught me basic skills that I needed to become a good programmer.

IMO, I think most university curriculums involve this sort of hybrid education that involve labs/projects combined with theoretical lectures. I'm guessing the type of courses taught in Temple are not the norm.

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