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Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

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Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#51
Many of her friends in their third and fourth year in Temple’s computer science department haven’t written a line of code outside of basic Java, she said.

What. You can't just make a claim like that without justification. In 5 minutes of search, I found a "sample course sheet," for a Junior CS major, where the fall semester recommends "CIS 3238 Software Design [1]. One syllabus[2] is available from a professor's website[3], and includes this project description:

The goal of the project phase of this course is for students to gain experience in contributing to an open source project. The nature of the contribution may be to contribute an enhancement or to fix an open problem. Students may work alone or in a team of up-to 3 students. While project work will be concentrated to the last half of the course, you need to select the project early and join the developer’s mailing list.

If you are a computer science major and are not writing code, there should be some explanation. A journalist should try to find answers to those questions.

[1] http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/CS_BS.ht...

[2] http://www.cis.temple.edu/~wolfgang/CIS%203238%20Software%20...

[3] http://www.cis.temple.edu/~wolfgang/

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#52
post #7

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is . The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics…

It seems to me that either her academic advisor wasn't knowledgable enough or the student didn't clearly communicate what she wanted from a program of study. She probably would have been happier had she went into Information Systems and Technology. There is a difference in goals between Computer Science and Information Systems and those differences are listed on Temple's CSIT website.

From Temple:

"Computer Science": Emphasis is on the more conceptual aspects of computing, especially as related to program design, and the study of computing systems, including hardware architecture and computer resource management.

"IS&T": Emphasis is on the design, analysis, development and implementation of systems and the underlying technologies that support this development.

http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/document...

A little more research by both the advisor and the student may have avoided a horribly titled article.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#53
post #7

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is . The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics…

> Maybe "software engineering" instead of "computer science".

This is not really any better, just different types of required courses.

At my alma mater, Auburn, the Software Engineering major is actually more rigorous than the Computer Science major. You have to take Cal 1-3, Engineering Physics 1 and 2, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations and Engineering Mechanics [0]. Basically, a lot of the engineering foundations that are shared with other, more physical engineering disciplines.

Computer Science, by comparison, only requires Cal 1 and 2 and Linear Algebra. You can also take an easier core science requirement (like Geology) and, generally, have more freedom to choose electives. [1]

I've thought for awhile now that there needs to be a new major that crosses disciplines between engineering and liberal arts. You need to have some of the math and programming foundations to be a good developer that can move beyond simple entry-level type foundations. But a lot of what I struggle with now is "soft skills": design, user experience, copy writing, documentation, etc. Almost like a blending of computer science and fine arts.

I would love to see someone address this need, because in the modern world where real everyday people use our software (not just scientists and engineers), the latter is just as important as the former.

[0] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof...

[1] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof...

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an incredibly privileged point of view. It is not frequently the case that students with the apitutude for college have the support they need from family and relevant experts at school to engage in the kind of thoughtful deliberation you suggest.

It certainly doesn't take any more support or resources then attending college does...

It does take more support from family and counselors, because it's swimming against the current. It's easy to jump right into college when everyone's drilled it into your head that you need to go, regardless of your particular personality/goals/stage in life.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#55
post #11
post #7

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is . The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics…

100% agreed! This paragraph is telling: "For example, Temple’s computer science program still requires Calculus 1 and 2. It turns a lot of students off and isn’t really necessary to become a developer, Shi admits. These aren’t problems specific to Temple, he said. They plague most computer science programs." There. Calculus may not be necessary to be a web developer (then again, I suspect even then it is, at least fo…

* This paragraph is telling:*

What it tells me is that the journalist is using rhetoric to persuade you into thinking that the computer science program is badly designed, failing to serve poor students like Becca.

This writer's only sources for information about the computer science curriculum appear to be Becca and Dr. Justin Yi, the department chair. Your quote is from Yi, who follows up with this paragraph:

That’s because, he said, these types of academic programs were created to cater to an elite few. They weren’t tailored for the masses. As technology has started to touch every part of our lives, university programs haven’t caught up.

In other words, the program is designed to teach a smart, highly-motivated person how computers work and how to use them, which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer".

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that the field moves faster than colleges. Kids who might be looking for a path to that career that they're aware of, try their best to find a fit. Computer Science is what all the job postings seem to want.

In my opinion, the problem is that people going into these degree programs (CS included) assuming that they will come out prepared to work in those fields. It seems that many people who are going for a degree in CS are really looking for vocational education in software development [0]. That kind of education can move faster and track changes in the field better than a full-fledged degree program. [0] And it looks li…

> In my opinion, the problem is that people going into these degree programs (CS included) assuming that they will come out prepared to work in those fields.

Ain't that the big dirty secret about most degrees - you learn most of what you need on the job.

I don't think you can get real-world exposure soon enough, at least so you know what you're working toward. I wish my school had had a co-op program. I dropped out of one program because I realized during a boring internship that this is what I was being prepared for. Instead of straight to college, I'll encourage my kids to get low-level jobs in their desired industry, out of high school (if not before).

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#57
post #31

"Many of her friends in their third and fourth year in Temple’s computer science department haven’t written a line of code outside of basic Java, she said." Temple CS '08 grad here. They had us writing C, lisp, and x86 asm (simple multiple precision arithmetic) in the first year. I think she's exaggerating a bit. Java was introduced in the third and fourth years when they started on higher level data structures and a…

Yes, it is a poor article by traditional standards. It appears the writer did no research at all other than her interview with the department chair (who conveniently appears to agree with the narrative, although it's hard to say whether quotes are taken out of context)

edit: ps, where are the press hits in this article? http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#58
post #55
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed! This paragraph is telling: "For example, Temple’s computer science program still requires Calculus 1 and 2. It turns a lot of students off and isn’t really necessary to become a developer, Shi admits. These aren’t problems specific to Temple, he said. They plague most computer science programs." There. Calculus may not be necessary to be a web developer (then again, I suspect even then it is, at least fo…

* This paragraph is telling:* What it tells me is that the journalist is using rhetoric to persuade you into thinking that the computer science program is badly designed, failing to serve poor students like Becca. This writer's only sources for information about the computer science curriculum appear to be Becca and Dr. Justin Yi, the department chair. Your quote is from Yi, who follows up with this paragraph: That’s…

I think we're in agreement, except for a minor point:

> which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer".

You can of course be a computer scientists and a developer (I'd even say that's an excellent choice), but the point is that a CS education isn't a "programming" education. If you approach CS because you want to program (say, you want to be a web developer, you are in a hurry to start your startup, etc.) you're going to be disappointed. This is because the focus of CS isn't programming languages, but theory. If you like studying logic, proofs, math, theoretical models and you also like programming, then CS is your game!

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly doesn't take any more support or resources then attending college does...

It does take more support from family and counselors, because it's swimming against the current. It's easy to jump right into college when everyone's drilled it into your head that you need to go, regardless of your particular personality/goals/stage in life.

That effect to not go against the grain should be more extreme in communities where 99.9% of students attend college.

Regardless, the issue isn't to pick your path exactly before you go. The point is to be prepared to dedicate some marginal effort to it either at the beginning or before.

You really think it's on the schools to tell students what they should learn or what degree they should get? Certainly people have different amounts of support going into it, but we can't just keep pushing the age of personal responsibility further and further out. To absolve underprivileged young adults of these key steps in life is not only harmful to their personal development, but I'd argue personally insulting to their potential as independent adults.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#60
post #14

Student wants to learn the vocational art of programming, discovers Computer Science is not about programming, drops out. Sounds like everything went the way it should have. I majored in CS and there were no end of students complaining about discreet math or analyzing algorithms when all they wanted was to learn what ever the hot language was at the time. Schools don't need to change CS programs, they need to better…

Student wants to learn the vocational art of programming, discovers Computer Science is not about programming, drops out.

If you read more closely, you'll see that's probably not what happened. She didn't drop out because computer science isn't about programming, she dropped out because she had no self-motivation and no real direction. She found the college environment difficult and boring and she found her advisor useless. She was far more enthusiastic about working for the (likely) charismatic, inspiring leaders at Techgirlz.

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