Earlier quoted context omitted.
We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…
> I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. Since no one can explain what "patriarchy" even is in a concrete way, this is very far from obvious.
The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
221–230 of 359 posts
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#222The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…
The only exceptions seem to be Bangladesh and China. This indicates that, whilst it would be nice to have a simple one-size fits all reason for male suicides pretty much globally being higher than female, the picture is somewhat more complex than "We have been demonizing all things male".
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
haha, wow. That was at +5. You MRA guys don't mess around!
I downvoted you for aggressive tone. I fucking loathe MRAs.
Just to contextualize this. I just got done watching the pilot episodes of bee and puppycat [1], I was feeling very very mellow at the time of writing. It's hard to believe that people perceived any aggressive posturing or tone there.
I'm always interested in improving my communication skills, and it seems my writing style has included a posture that I did not mean to convey! Can you tell me what contributed to the tone you detected? I simply am not able to detect it, and that may simply be because it's hard to critique you're own writing.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2DcNkn8HAwQLcXTiDB87...
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#224I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today. Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than…
This masculinity is the cause of your other problems too:
Nobody celebrates father's day because according to society's version of masculinity, men aren't allowed to be sentimental. Getting cards and flowers isn't exactly a manly thing.
Male victims of statutory rape are rarely considered to be victims, because according to our twisted view of masculinity, males are always supposed to want sex. Everytime a female teacher is caught having sex with an underage male student, someone jokes that the young student "scored a hot babe" or something to that effect.
Men on TV are bumbling idiots because men are the primary audience for these shows. The protagonists are always average, unremakable men so that the average man can identify with them. The women characters are always sharp witted and shrewd because they are the antagonists.
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
>These prejudice are a product of patriarchy. No. E.g. The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists. There are many other similar prejudices now. So it's simply dishonest to pretend that feminism has had no influence on family law, education, or many other areas where boys and men are struggling.
It's also dishonest to put such words in my mouth, when they were never said ;) The disconnect, IMO, stems from the fact that women are fighting, and men are not. Or, perhaps better said, men are just beginning to frame an opposition. Women have stood up, organized, and brought attention to their problems (which were, without any doubt, seriously greater than men's), and achieved many victories. Standard democratic p…
Yes, honestly, though perhaps it shouldn't. The point of feminism was to bring equality to the sexes. In places where it has been successful, to see it continue to push forward as a way of achieving victories for women causes spite and backlash. I have low hopes for a real men's version of feminism to form, for exactly the reasons laid out in this article. The main problem (as this article points out) is that any man who admits to difficulties or problems is seen as not-a-man. The current state of MRA might be sad, but they are generally despised first and foremost because men who complain are not respectable men. Perhaps its just a pipe dream, but one would hope that feminists would remember that the original goal was equality for both sexes, and would help us out where needed.
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
>These prejudice are a product of patriarchy. No. E.g. The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists. There are many other similar prejudices now. So it's simply dishonest to pretend that feminism has had no influence on family law, education, or many other areas where boys and men are struggling.
> The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists Ou don't think it has anything to do with the vast numbers of women killed by men? Very few men are murdered by their wives. While domestic abuse from women against men is important please don't make the mistake of saying the levels of severity of violence is the same.
Weapons in untrained hands do generally less damage than fists, so men in general cause more damage in fights. However, if the weapon do cause damage, that damage has a higher risk of being major.
So which one is more server, a untrained knife wielding attacker or someone going for you with their fists. The legal system has one view, the statistics has one.
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…
> It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. No, but it is the reason that this is the modern trope men are reduced to in modern media. Matt Groening has gone on the record saying that the reason he created Homer and Bart as incompetent / lovable / stupid / trouble makers, and Lisa / Marge as competent, intelligent role models, is because at the time the series was coming out he fe…
Anyway, feminists fight for women. They are mostly women. They had a serious bunch of wrongs to right, more than just some unfavorable sitcom tropes. If they were not, during this fight, sufficiently sensitized to the problems of men, can you really blame them? Do you even realize how unjust and hypocritical such a judgement is? Had feminism followed such standards, it would have never achieved anything, and women would to this day be unable to vote, own property, etc etc.
Men would do well to stand up for themselves in these matters, and not allow themselves to find scapegoats in feminism.
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#228The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…
> As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated. You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves. The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly lo…
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
Going off of that Vice article, sometimes I think that a 40/60 ratio of men to women would be favorable... it'd probably reflect the proportions of our hunter gatherer ancestry, and a lot of psychological benefits would come with that I'd imagine. But everything else she said was extremely misandrist and sexist.
It would be good for people's mental health. No one woman can provide the amount of sex a man physically needs for his mental health. And women are secretly happy to see that their man still has what it takes to attract other women, isn't lying to himself about his nature, etc.
"No one woman can provide the amount of sex a man physically needs for his mental health."
Grow up.
Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
#230look, men are disposable. and it's always been this way, biologically speaking. throughout most of history, mens' purpose was disposability - through soldiering, exploring, entrepreneurialism (the high risk / high reward activities), or just working your fuckin' ass to the bone in the fields of fealty or a in a grey cubicle (the low risk / low reward activities). let's define some terms. "meaning of life" (note i did…
> furthermore, society interprets "men" as the top (physically, socially, financially) 20% of men, the men who make a real dent in the world and who override the general perception of masculinity in society. the high achievers, the genetically gifted, the powerful. the stereotypical 'man'.
I.e. Alpha males. Women are biologically programmed to go for them, and that's a good thing for our society's fitness.
> however, the truth is most men aren't that archetype. most men are workhorse peons that get the shit end of the deal, having to endure living a modern subsistence lifestyle that consists of cheap housing, cheap food, cheap relationships, cheap labor.
I.e. Beta males. Sounds awful to be one right? But by definition they are the majority.
Now here's where it gets interesting. The "3 M's" as you mention, i.e. marriage, is a social construct used to incentivize Beta males to be productive. Marriage attempts to create an artificial 50/50 male/female pairing so that the vast majority of men have incentives to be productive and contribute towards society.
Societies which did not have this feature did not succeed throughout history.
Now we reach an interesting point in the 21st century, where by we have so much abundance that female needs are becoming decoupled. Note what I said above: females naturally seek the top of men, but society pressures them to consummate with average men to achieve 50/50. This deal was easier to sell in the past because women generally needed male providers to do the things they wanted: survive comfortably, start a family, etc.
Guess what? That is no longer so. Just read the original story: the now ex-wife has everything she needs, husband not included. His "meaning of life" was reduced to nothing. I'm not saying he's a victim though: I believe everyone has the responsibility to examine the incentives for or against them, understand the nature of those they interact with, and act accordingly. Social conditioning prepared him for the life of clueless provider though, and that sure didn't help him.
What women are encouraged to do now is roughly as follows. Chase those top X% Alpha men during their youth, when their beauty allows for it. Two options are possible: best case scenario, lock down the high value man. Fat chance though, with female sexual liberation, these men can just keep having an abundance of relationships with other young and pretty girls.
The other option is more common for women: hit about 30, coupled with a decline in beauty (which IMO is more linked to career stresses than the age) and then decide to "settle down" with a more provider type. Maybe he even has the "dad bod". I figure that must be a good marker for women to look for around this time, so it makes sense they'd encourage it.
Imagine this for a second. You eat gourmet food for 10 years straight, and then suddenly you have to switch to microwave TV dinners. Would you feel a little resentment? Would you ever have cravings for your previous diet?
In summary, when it comes to happiness and relationships, it's very important to understand the desires and incentives of others, as well as that of your environment. This is also the only way to minimize your exposure to tragedy.