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Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

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Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#11

Post by the_af »

jasode wrote: post #7

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is . The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics…

100% agreed! This paragraph is telling:

"For example, Temple’s computer science program still requires Calculus 1 and 2. It turns a lot of students off and isn’t really necessary to become a developer, Shi admits. These aren’t problems specific to Temple, he said. They plague most computer science programs."

There. Calculus may not be necessary to be a web developer (then again, I suspect even then it is, at least for some cases), but the purpose of a Computer Science education is not "to become a developer". What this person actually wanted was a programming school, and was disappointed when she didn't get exactly that.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#12

Post by lifebeyondfife »

tompccs wrote: post #3
Quizz wrote: post #2

The process of learning to program is more vocational than lecture hall. Most colleges and their deans don't get it.

In my opinion, if you want to learn how to be a software engineer you should take a degree in Software Engineering (which is a natural descendent of Electrical Engineering). If you want to be a computer scientist then do a degree in Computer Science (a natural descendent of mathematics). The problem is that the courses in many universities are misleadingly named.

This! Looking back at my career I didn't really learn to program properly until I was in an industry job staring down the barrel of a massive codebase collaborating with colleagues across different teams. It was great.

But time and time again I find my strong theoretical grounding in computer science coming in handy. The last time I hit the front page of HN was with a blog post about how I spotted an NP-complete problem in $m+ enterprise system for insurance companies. It would have gotten to clients with unresponsive brick-like performance if they upped a couple of parameters because my colleagues didn't understand the Curse of Dimensionality and why it was important.

I'll admit that college professors can live in their own world of academic navel gazing, but there is an actual point to theoretical computer science. And the best time to learn is when you have the time and freedom from short term goals and arbitrary client deadlines. If only there were a few years we could devote to such endeavours before entering the workplace. Hmmmmm...

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#13

Post by jowiar »

jasode wrote: post #7

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is . The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics…

This isn't the students' fault, though. In industry, we're asking for a "Computer Science" major, and often times our hiring processes are very CS heavy, when for most of us it only covers a portion of the skills we need, and others we don't. It's sort of like if accounting firms were recruiting math majors, and hiring based on their theorem-proving skills.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#14

Post by DIVx0 »

Student wants to learn the vocational art of programming, discovers Computer Science is not about programming, drops out. Sounds like everything went the way it should have.

I majored in CS and there were no end of students complaining about discreet math or analyzing algorithms when all they wanted was to learn what ever the hot language was at the time.

Schools don't need to change CS programs, they need to better market an alternative software development curriculum.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#15

Post by clavalle »

protomyth wrote: post #6

Shouldn't they create a Software Engineering program and then leave Computer Science alone?

I would guess that even Software Engineering students would have to go through Calculus (just because it is a good weed out if for nothing else) and other math heavy, theoretical practice -- just like other Engineers.

What they want is almost a Software Technician degree. Someone that can put together apps and know how to troubleshoot but who are not working on the bleeding edge but putting together technology that others have largely already designed.

There is a huge need for this level of skill but not so much formal training. There are budding movements in that direction but nothing in the traditional higher education landscape or with that same level of trust and recognition.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#16

Post by viiralvx »

jkestner wrote: post #10
viiralvx wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated from Notre Dame with a Computer Science and Design degree. While the CORE classes are heavily theoretical and forces you to think about fundamental CS concepts (Theory of Computing, Programming Paradigms, Data Structures, Algorithms, etc.), there are electives tailored to learning how to program. I took electives in Mobile Application Development, Building Web Apps, JavaScript, Database Concepts, Data Min…

The theory, I think, is nice for a small subset of who we call programmers now. The article highlights that there is a huge demand for what you might call blue-collar programmers who don't need to care about theory, because there are plenty of simple, non-groundbreaking jobs to be done. Your basic CRUD apps. Those blue-collar programmers need not only more of a vocational education, but tools to match. Higher-level p…

But isn't that why there are coding bootcamps to allow those blue-collar programming positions to be filled? Like the Iron Yard, General Assembly, Hack Reactor, etc. I think there needs to be more advertising of these alternatives to a Computer Science degree if thats what somebody really wants to do.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#18

Post by jowiar »

the_af wrote: post #11
jasode wrote: post #7

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is . The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics…

100% agreed! This paragraph is telling: "For example, Temple’s computer science program still requires Calculus 1 and 2. It turns a lot of students off and isn’t really necessary to become a developer, Shi admits. These aren’t problems specific to Temple, he said. They plague most computer science programs." There. Calculus may not be necessary to be a web developer (then again, I suspect even then it is, at least fo…

You seem to be blaming the student.

Did I know as a 17-year-old applying to college what the hell the difference was? No. Did I study CS? Yes. Was it the right decision? Probably not (though I did stay in it). And I had about every advantage in the world of being exposed to programming from when I was 5 or 6.

Maybe the craziest part of the US college system, and technical fields in particular, is that most people don't know what's available, and don't know what they're applying for, all the while they go somewhere between the cost of a car and a house into debt.

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#19

Post by [deleted] »

jasode wrote: post #7

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is . The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics…

[deleted]

Re: Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

#20

Post by autokad »

protomyth wrote: post #6

Shouldn't they create a Software Engineering program and then leave Computer Science alone?

then nobody, like almost nobody would major in computer science.

the article started off as a good look at where computer science is / needs to go and then disintegrated into a 'why aren't there more women engineers?' ok... why aren't there more women garbage men? erm, garbage people?

anyways, I think computer science programs have come a long long way since the early 2000s. I think the major thing computer science majors have to know is, your education that you pay for will not be enough to succeed. you MUST be a autodidact and teach yourself what is important for the specific thing you want to do when you graduate.

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