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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

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Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#131

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

fierycatnet wrote: post #58
voltagex_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you, what's your budget and what do you enjoy?

I am in TX with a budget of ~1500 for a week or two. The longer and cheaper alone time is better. What do I like, you know I've been so slammed and in my head that I can't even pick a vacation spot or remember what I like. I think I'd enjoy just some peace somewhere, disconnected from it all for a week or two.

There are few things that work better than outdoors sports for me, so I agree on that one.

You might be interested in the concept of masculine / feminine societies (checkout geert-hofstede.com), because as a texan, you are probably in one of the most masculine places in the world, which is probably rather stressful. I would suggest, if you decide to travel abroad, to go to a country that is considered to be a feminine society, like Sweden or Thailand (avoid the south though, and the party islands). I was astounded that a huge city like Bangkok could feel so relaxed, it is a different life.

Though I have to say, traveling is often not advisable when you are depressed. You have higher expectations of happiness that are impossible to fulfill, plus often higher stress levels, which will likely make matters worse.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#132

Post by humanrebar »

mattlutze wrote: post #103
GhotiFish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

Like a lot of people have said, modern shows are very much into the everyman male lead. Bryan Cranston's character in Malcolm in the Middle, Ed O'Neill's Al Bundy, Tim Taylor playing, once again, the affable rough-though-bumbling dad. The thing is these are all prime-time sitcoms and comedies. There's just as many popular shows where this isn't the case. Dramas rarely have this sort of soft, incorrigible-but-loveable…

> Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire, Walking Dead, Mad Men

Those characters are aspirational? They're almost all murderers, thieves, adulterers, or worse. I wouldn't want my son to be anything like any of those characters.

Part of the problem with the antihero-as-role-model is that it also conveys that being interesting is important. And to be interesting, it's good (or at least OK) for a man to have significant character flaws. So many soon-to-be-men think having your crap together is boring and thus unattractive. And many women think falling for a flawed man and fixing him is a romantic notion.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#133

Post by Nursie »

toyg wrote: post #130
Nursie wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Feminism is cool whereas MRA is not The extreme voices of feminism are pretty awful, but AFAICT the entire MRA movement is made up of arseholes. It doesn't have to be, and there are issues to be addressed. It's just a shame it seems to be addressed by misogynist dickholes.

But part of the problem is that nobody would address radical feminists as "misandrist cuntholes", right? Doing so would automatically disqualify your credibility. But for men, it's fine, they are really dickholes, right? That's cultural hegemony at work, folks.

>> nobody would address radical feminists as "misandrist cuntholes"

People frequently do!

The difference is that they don't make up the whole of that movement.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#134

Post by nikkoschaff »

fierycatnet wrote: post #58
voltagex_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you, what's your budget and what do you enjoy?

I am in TX with a budget of ~1500 for a week or two. The longer and cheaper alone time is better. What do I like, you know I've been so slammed and in my head that I can't even pick a vacation spot or remember what I like. I think I'd enjoy just some peace somewhere, disconnected from it all for a week or two.

See if you can rent out a lakehouse in the Finger Lakes of Upstate New York. Not much noise, few distractions, plenty of nature, plenty of wineries. Kick back with a bottle or two and listen to the birds.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#135

Post by Nursie »

facepalm wrote: post #95
bakhy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demonization of all things male? That's just ridiculous. There are nasty things both men and women have to struggle with. I'd say the problem with male suicides probably exists for longer than 20 years. Patriarchy has existed for a long time, and together with it its accompanying set of high expectations of men. Pressures to be strong, successful, never show emotion or weakness, to serve your family,.. there is nothi…

The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children. What can men do? If they can't find a way to make themselves useful, what is their place?

>> The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children.

Yes, I frequently read articles in the press about women on welfare with large families, and how amazing they are for having children, and how privileged we all are to contribute to their upkeep!

I am not defined by my use to society. I live my life for me and the people I love, my place is what I make it, not what 'society' decides to offer me.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#136

Post by gadders »

curun1r wrote: post #32
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

It's OK to be vulnerable, but it is equally OK to master your emotions and and be tough. I prefer the latter route.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#137

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

bakhy wrote: post #101
M8 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we are kinda equal" Which gender legally gets the kids, house and alimony in +90% of divorces?

We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…

>These prejudice are a product of patriarchy.

No. E.g. The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists.

There are many other similar prejudices now. So it's simply dishonest to pretend that feminism has had no influence on family law, education, or many other areas where boys and men are struggling.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#139

Post by redml »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

This is a product of the wrong people continuously trying to redefine masculinity to fit their own agenda, and most men are confused, shy, unattractive, have low self-esteem, are passive, etc. as a result of this.

These parties would rather men kill themselves over their identity crisis than those men rediscovering true masculinity - because they're afraid of the bad part. It's just the nature of things, Masculinity and Femininity both their good and bad parts, but we only shun one.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#140

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

curun1r wrote: post #32
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

> It's okay to express your feelings. It's okay to be vulnerable.

I've thought about this a lot, and I'm afraid its not that simple. In competitive, male societies where a certain bluntness is socially accepted, you cannot unilaterally change the rules. You'll be a welcome victim to the schoolyard bullies. You'll be setting up your son for psychological damage.

Having friends, doing sports, enjoying nature, taking care of your appearance etc. are probably more effective in balancing a boy's psychology.

If you don't have a cute girl's pretty face, nobody will white-knight on your behalf or care about your feelings - instead, people will be embarrassed.

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