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How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#221

Post by leap_ahead »

Russian citizen here.

This sort of things I have regularly been hearing about the US over the last decade make me really sad. Some 20 years ago America was a symbol of civil liberties for us. I considered one day maybe going there to work and live. A few years ago I still entertained an idea of going there for an internship. Today I'd be scared to go there even as a tourist or on a short business trip.

Let's say I go there. Then what? My cell phone and laptop can be confiscated at the airport for no reason. When I continue on to the streets I can be mugged by the police and get all of my money taken from me. And then when I go on without my phone or any money in my pocket, I can get killed in a mass shooting by yet another disgruntled worker who's just been laid off or by a high school freak whose girlfriend has just left him. Or maybe I don't get shot but then get sued by somebody for whatever reason and then I'm going to need from a few hundred thousands bucks to a few millions to defend myself in a court. Which will probably consider a Russian citizen a hacker and a criminal and pronounce me guilty anyway.

Sound like a true third world country to me. I'm not saying Russia is much better. But it's not the same America I've gotten to know from the movies of the 60s-80s.

What happened to you? How have you fallen so low?

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#222

Post by leap_ahead »

gambiting wrote: post #182
AwesomeGriffin wrote: post #33

I've heard this sort of thing happening in Third World countries. Perhaps the US is - for all its advanced technology and creature comforts - essentially now a Third World kleptocracy. Silicon Valley and Manhattan are like Dubai - gaudy showcases that don't represent the true nature of the hinterland. I would be very wary about working in Dubai; I would be equally wary about working and living in the US for the same…

Seriously, 99% of these "outrageous" things that are happening in US now were also a thing 30-40 years ago in communist Poland and my parents(and their parents) are very well aware of these dangers - but Americans have never experienced it so they are completely oblivious to what is happening with their country. When I was a kid I always wanted to go to America - now I would pay money to not have to go there, thank y…

Same here, from a Russian citizen.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#223

Post by leap_ahead »

ploxiln wrote: post #120
AwesomeGriffin wrote: post #33

I've heard this sort of thing happening in Third World countries. Perhaps the US is - for all its advanced technology and creature comforts - essentially now a Third World kleptocracy. Silicon Valley and Manhattan are like Dubai - gaudy showcases that don't represent the true nature of the hinterland. I would be very wary about working in Dubai; I would be equally wary about working and living in the US for the same…

I'm a US citizen who is very unhappy about "civil forfeiture", about mass surveillance, etc. But the reality is that most people in the US are not directly affected. I haven't really been affected, and I don't personally know anyone who has been. (yeah yeah it helps that I'm white.) Most US citizens who are aware of these things, like me, are very unhappy about them. But most people are not really aware, and one reas…

>> In the US, you can talk about it, you can get a lawyer

The problem is, you must be able to afford a lawyer. If the legal process of defending oneself is only available to the rich, then it largely does no exist for the general population.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#224

Post by notahacker »

itistoday2 wrote: post #218
notahacker wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live someplace and don't pay rent at the end of the month, the landlord will bill you, even if you're desperately searching for somewhere else. For some reason, most anti-taxers consider this not to be "coercion" but to be an efficient way of allocating resources and will defend to the death the landlord's right to demand that I compensate him for occupying a particular location he has a prior claim over. The…

One involves non-coercive mutual consent (a signed agreement), the other doesn't.

I never signed a contract with my landlord.

Someone born in a particular house with a third party claiming ownership rights faces exactly the same keep paying up or vacate dilemma as someone born in a particular country. In both cases, they might find it difficult to find a piece of territory that is both appealing to live and doesn't involve paying someone else for their right to occupy it.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#225

Post by senorito »

leap_ahead wrote: post #221

Russian citizen here. This sort of things I have regularly been hearing about the US over the last decade make me really sad. Some 20 years ago America was a symbol of civil liberties for us. I considered one day maybe going there to work and live. A few years ago I still entertained an idea of going there for an internship. Today I'd be scared to go there even as a tourist or on a short business trip. Let's say I go…

German citizen here.

I wouldn't even consider going on vacation there anymore.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#226

Post by itistoday2 »

notahacker wrote: post #224
itistoday2 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One involves non-coercive mutual consent (a signed agreement), the other doesn't.

I never signed a contract with my landlord. Someone born in a particular house with a third party claiming ownership rights faces exactly the same keep paying up or vacate dilemma as someone born in a particular country. In both cases, they might find it difficult to find a piece of territory that is both appealing to live and doesn't involve paying someone else for their right to occupy it.

This is not at all the same situation.

The relationship governments have with their citizens is unique.

It goes like this: give us a chunk of your entire income forever or else we'll throw you in prison. Don't like it? Say good-bye to all your friends and family and enjoy surviving in a country where you don't understand anything anyone is saying, which will probably just give you the same ultimatum.

That's simply mafia-style protection-money robbery.

There is another option: voluntary association and voluntary taxation. This is just one possible form it can take: http://groupcurrency.org

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#227

Post by kzrdude »

fsck--off wrote: post #205
hackercurious wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The State of New Mexico has just banned asset forfeiture. HB 560, introduced by New Mexico Rep. Zachary Cook and passed unanimously in the legislature, replaces civil asset forfeiture with criminal forfeiture, which requires a conviction of a person as a prerequisite to losing property tied to a crime. The new law means that New Mexico now has the strongest protections against wrongful asset seizures in the country.…

The WaPo article (the submission) mentions this bill, but finishes: "But New Mexico's law only affects state law enforcement officials. As a result, in New Mexico — and everywhere else, for that matter — DEA agents will be able to board your train, ask you where you're going and take all your cash if they don't like your story, all without ever charging you with a crime."

It sounds like a semi-criminalization of cash in practice.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#228

Post by stefantalpalaru »

leap_ahead wrote: post #221

Russian citizen here. This sort of things I have regularly been hearing about the US over the last decade make me really sad. Some 20 years ago America was a symbol of civil liberties for us. I considered one day maybe going there to work and live. A few years ago I still entertained an idea of going there for an internship. Today I'd be scared to go there even as a tourist or on a short business trip. Let's say I go…

> But it's not the same America I've gotten to know from the movies of the 60s-80s.

It never was. You just grew up and now you're able to see past the propaganda.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#229

Post by justthistime_ »

hackercurious wrote: post #176
imroot wrote: post #10

While civil forfeiture is scary, my (very very brief) stint doing criminal law as a public defender showed me that there's also a bigger side of this -- seizing the assets of individuals who are charged with a crime so that they cannot attain private counsel, make bail, or receive any creature comforts while incarcerated. What will generally happen is that after sitting in jail for 120+ days, they'll jump at any oppo…

The State of New Mexico has just banned asset forfeiture. HB 560, introduced by New Mexico Rep. Zachary Cook and passed unanimously in the legislature, replaces civil asset forfeiture with criminal forfeiture, which requires a conviction of a person as a prerequisite to losing property tied to a crime. The new law means that New Mexico now has the strongest protections against wrongful asset seizures in the country.…

Doesn't this just mean that the will rob you _and_ additionally charge you with some made-up crime and let you rot in jail until you sign the plea deal?

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#230

Post by venomsnake »

bobbles wrote: post #109
zaroth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could imagine reading it this way: DEA agents confronted the only black man in the train car and demanded he open his bags, shook him down, and stole his cash. In a brazen theft which DEA agents later claimed was legal under the veil of "civil forfeiture" the state prosecutor has refused to press charges, and the judge on the case has refused to provide relief for the plaintiff... I hope we continue to see a rele…

> I wonder how the story would have gone differently if the man had refused to consent to the search. Probably taze the guy, then shoot him 7 times in the back as he runs off

This is so last year. Current trends in LE is to first shoot the guy than taze him
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