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Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

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Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#181

Post by teacup50 »

DanBC wrote: post #88
teacup50 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla neutered themselves when they 1) stuck with an ancient, bug-riddled, poorly performing codebase for too long, and 2) tripled down on the JS/HTML/CSS trifecta of suck, and 3) then tried to use it to build an OS. Google was the only browser vendor actively trying to move the web stack beyond the technology swamp it's been mired in for so long. There are individuals today who have literally built an entire caree…

> (a lot of them on HN -- note the downvotes) You're getting at least some downvotes for your ridiculously hostile aggressive tone.

It's a tone commiserate with the cost this has levied against our industry.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#182

Post by cpeterso »

eps wrote: post #69
reubenmorais wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not imply a kernel component. From the point of view of the browser, EME is an API to a sandboxed binary (the CDM) that decrypts video frames and sends them back to the browser, which then presents them to the user. The CDM might use kernel facilities for storing encryption keys.

Bad wording. Does this update add Adobe's stuff into kernel or does it not (e.g. if Adobe is just piggy-backing on Windows PMP)? Can anyone from Mozilla comment on this? This is a principal question, because if there is an Adobe's kernel DRM driver in this update, then it makes sense to go with the "EME-free" update instead of adding and then, hopefully, removing 3rd party junk from the kernel as per that Mozilla KB…

I work at Mozilla on the EME team.

Neither Firefox nor the Adobe CDM install any kernel code. The Adobe CDM is, conceptually, the Flash Player's DRM code repackaged to work with Firefox's CDM API. And the Flash Player doesn't need to install new kernel drivers. Studios have different DRM requirements for video quality levels like HD, non-HD, "Studio HD", and "Ultra HD". For higher quality video, studios might require secure hardware path. Even this level, AFAIU, doesn't require new kernel drivers because Windows already has APIs for this.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#183

Post by SaberUK »

pikzen wrote: post #116
DanBC wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That DVD you bought? The one from a different region? It won't play and the reason it won't play is because of DRM. You think you can just put it in your laptop and use VLC, but you forget that your laptop DVD drive is probably region-locked in firmware, so although yes VLC ignores region coding the drive doesn't, and will enforce the region coding and refuse to play your DVD. I can fix it for you. Here's the list o…

The amount of people buying off-region DVDs is awfully low. There are a thousand betters reasons to reject DRM such as not owning your product anymore ("That iTunes music ? Yeah, they can revoke your access at any time.").

Most music bought from iTunes has been DRM free for many years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7813527.stm

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#184

Post by serge2k »

byuu wrote: post #171
notsony wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is madness. Have you ever heard of constructive dismissal? California Supreme Court: "the employer either intentionally created or knowingly permitted working conditions that were so intolerable or aggravated at the time of the employee's resignation that a reasonable employer would realize that a reasonable person in the employee's position would be compelled to resign" Wikipedia: "In employment law, constructi…

Tell me again how Eich's employer made it a hostile working environment for him, please? Given that he had no boss (being the CEO and all), we can only assume you mean the board members. Please point out to me a single board member who was in any way hostile toward him. Even the two board members that resigned said it had nothing to do with Eich.

His employer is Mozilla.

The conditions were such that staying on as CEO was not an option for him.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#185

Post by serge2k »

bcheung wrote: post #53
schoen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original commenter was asking why people would want to prevent their browser from having DRM support, rather than why publishers would want DRM. (For DRM opponents, having convenient and standardized DRM is worse in many ways because it is more likely to be adopted in more circumstances.)

I can't think of a good reason to deliberately remove it from your browser. Why would it be worse if more companies used DRM? I can think of some edge cases on obscure devices or if you are pirate but other than that it seems like legal users would be unaffected and not even notice it.

oh you can't watch this video your paid for on your computer because reasons.

You need to use this crappy video player instead.

Oh you can only watch this on 3 computers and you have hit that limit.

the license for this content has been lost, you can't watch it anymore.

Compare that to the pirates life: Click play -> watch movie.

There was actually an interesting article a while back about DRM not being about preventing piracy, but rather enforcing methods of watching (so 100% to control legitimate customers).

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#186

Post by Manishearth »

jumpwah wrote: post #118
callahad wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I for one am pretty decided to move to Firefox once Mozilla integrates Servo into it Hooray! I'm excited to have you back. :) If your switch is gated on Servo, you might be in for a long wait: we're moving small, modular components into Firefox as we're able, but completely changing implementation languages for parts of a browser used by hundreds of millions of people is a slow, deliberate process which involves pr…

Are there any plans to build a completely new browser from Servo? Is there even any worth in that? (A firefox-esque "normal" one, not like that experimental html browser thing.)

(Servo contributor here)

No concrete plans. We hope to get a new mobile browser out. For Desktop we're hopeful about browser.html. As a research project we aren't really worrying about any of this yet.

browser.html is intended to be a "normal" browser, though in it's current state it isn't quite there yet :P (It's not pure web HTML, there is a small set of "mozbrowser" APIs which it uses to get sandboxing and the other necessary things)

Firefox's UI is anyway written in XUL (an html-esque xml thingy), so browser.html isn't too far from what Firefox does.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#187

Post by serge2k »

jarrettc wrote: post #92
angersock wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the annoying part, right? Surely there was, at least, some kind of open-source alternative for getting/fetching/caching these keys? Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation?

> Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation? The client ultimately has to decrypt the data somehow. So the key is there on the client. I take it obfuscation is the only thing standing between the user and that key. Am I correct about that? Which makes me wonder: How much security does HTML5 DRM really provide? Security through obscurity is a very weak defense, and one that is almost invariable defeated sooner or…

This isn't security through obscurity, unless the DRM implementation being a secret actually does provide security. I doubt it does, beyond the fact that an audit of the source could probably find a load of security issues.

Of course an audit of OpenSSL would do the same.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#188

Post by serge2k »

Karunamon wrote: post #32
hoopd wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I'm sick of people making such a big deal just becasue Mozilla lost its CEO in such an awful way that he didn't even return to his CTO role. Just because he literally wrote JavaScript, co-founded Mozilla and worked on Firefox since it was called Netscape Navigator it doesn't mean he should be able to take part in America's political process in a way that some find offensive.

*most find offensive. It is possible for someone to be a brilliant technologist and an otherwise awful person. And before someone takes me to task for the words "awful person" - sorry, that's my evaluation of someone who'd rather lose their job than say sorry for the prejudice.

Not when he contributed. the proposition did pass after all.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#189

Post by Manishearth »

notsony wrote: post #148
throwaway150512 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so... Mozilla itself deserves to shoulder at least as much of the blame due to a number of decisions that range from mediocre to downright terrible. And I'm not even talking about what happened with Brendan. I'm talking about the organization's downturn during the years that directly correspond with the tenure of people like Gary "JavaScript rendering engine" Kovacs and the years that saw Sullivan at the height…

What happened with Brendan may be very relevant. See my post further up in this thread. Brendan did not like what the W3C was doing with DRM and was quite vocal about it. His prop 8 donation was public knowledge for years and nobody had a problem with it... but then suddenly the board, the employees and the community were outraged. As soon as he was forced out the other execs at Mozilla announced they would be implem…

You forget that another significant event happened at the time; he was nominated for CEO. That puts a person under a lot of scrutiny in the first place. I would say that it was indeed a coincidence.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#190

Post by serge2k »

Karunamon wrote: post #46
hoopd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well allow me to extend thanks to you and everybody like you for damaging a very important Open Source project at a very important time. I understand it would have been difficult to sit down at the negotiation table with Eich and set an example for everybody of how to work with people you have disagreements with, but it would have been the right thing to do. Either way, you won. I hope it was worth it.

How do you foresee a negotiation with someone's core values progressing? There's a fundamental incompatibility there, not just something that can be talked and reasoned around. You personally, the guy typing the letters into this box, what do you think the outcome of such a "negotiation" would be if it were as successful as humanly possible? At the end of the day, Mozilla's entire mission statement is contrary to Eic…

If what happened to Eich happened to a peon it would be indefensible.

The only reason why it was acceptable in the case of Eich is that he was in a position to represent the views of the company.

If he was a mid level engineer working on Spidermonkey and got fired over a political contribution it would have been completely ridiculous.

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