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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

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Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#41

Post by forgottenpass »

angersock wrote: post #38
curun1r wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

This was maybe a useful message ten, twenty years ago. The problem is that, honestly, a lot of these feelings are messy. They aren't expressions of weakness, they aren't some magical key used to unlock progress, they're not even something that's easily sympathized with. They can be the white-hot anger of being pulled off a project or ignored for the nth time in class or being made fun of. They can be the bubbling col…

The idea men should express themselves combined with the limits on socially acceptable expression have always been a strong indicator to me that "men showing emotion" isn't about men showing emotion.

The social limits on expression aren't even based on a laughably bad interpretation of "heathy" expression. It straight up means to continue conforming like you always have, but additionally cry and show emotional weakness when socially cued to do so.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#42

Post by steve19 »

curun1r wrote: post #32
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

My experience has taught me the opposite. My grandfather and father were never taught to express feelings. Both were products of their time and circumstances. And there is nothing wrong with that. Both were successful in life despite the odds being stacked against them.

I do not have children. I would not have a clue how to raise a girl, but if I had a boy, I would be teaching him stoical techniques to dealing with problems, not today's 'share your feelings' approach.

(I am not in anyway telling you how to raise your children, just sharing my opinion as a man.)

I just don't see any evidence that the West's in vogue approach to teaching boys and young men to be "in touch with their feelings" is helping them in anyway. They are not happier. They are not more successful (in life). They are depressed.

The stoics taught that most of what we think are problems, are not in fact problems. And the things that are problems are generally not in our capacity to change and therefore probably not worth worrying about.

Society tells us that every little thing is worth being upset about. We are conditioned to even be outraged on other people's behalf over what really amounts to nothing (think every single twitter shitstorm ever). We are told to pick at scabs until they are bleeding, then pick some more. The theory being that if we pick deep enough we will end up in a state of emotional healing/enlightenment and we will feeling better for it. I don't buy it.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#43

Post by ossreality »

steve19 wrote: post #42
curun1r wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

My experience has taught me the opposite. My grandfather and father were never taught to express feelings. Both were products of their time and circumstances. And there is nothing wrong with that. Both were successful in life despite the odds being stacked against them. I do not have children. I would not have a clue how to raise a girl, but if I had a boy, I would be teaching him stoical techniques to dealing with p…

Wow, this is massively fucked up.

>I just don't see any evidence that the West's in vogue approach to teaching boys and young men to be "in touch with their feelings" is helping them in anyway. They are not happier. They are not more successful (in life). They are depressed.

pure nonsense. through and through.

>Society tells us that every little thing is worth being upset about. We are conditioned to even be outraged on other people's behalf over what really amounts to nothing (think every single twitter shitstorm ever). We are told to pick at scabs until they are bleeding, then pick some more. The theory being that if we pick deep enough we will end up in a state of emotional healing/enlightenment and we will feeling better for it.

Ah yes, how dare other people be upset about social injustices that haven't happened to privileged old me. Why am I not shocked that you think your kids should bottle everything up. Woof.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#44

Post by alextgordon »

curun1r wrote: post #32
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

Everybody's brain is wired differently (and infused with a different cocktail of chemicals).

For me, controlling my emotions brings a sense of inner calm -- happiness. There is nothing better than thinking with a clear head, without being dogged by feelings of anger, anxiety, jealousy, fear or sadness.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#46

Post by GhotiFish »

GhotiFish wrote: post #15
parennoob wrote: post #8

I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today. Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than…

huh? I hardly feel threatened by basically everything you just listed there. Do you? I get the feeling if you asked most women: "Do you think men are awful?" The answer would be "Yes but we love them anyway." and, to be on a less cutsey point. There was a time in my life where I was seriously depressed, and it was not because I thought society treated men poorly on average. It was because I thought I would have no pl…

haha, wow. That was at +5.

You MRA guys don't mess around!

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#47

Post by HAAAAMMMM »

All this blabbering...

Men exist as functions. To assume otherwise defies every single thing you actually act upon. Without perpetual fear hanging over their heads, they'll devolve into overt rapists and monsters that burn down the world.

You all secretly believe this. Stop pretending to care about us. It's about as trite as some 1990s neo-hippie caring about some non-induatrialized tribe du jour for Starbucks points.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#49

Post by _cpancake »

HAAAAMMMM wrote: post #47

All this blabbering... Men exist as functions. To assume otherwise defies every single thing you actually act upon. Without perpetual fear hanging over their heads, they'll devolve into overt rapists and monsters that burn down the world. You all secretly believe this. Stop pretending to care about us. It's about as trite as some 1990s neo-hippie caring about some non-induatrialized tribe du jour for Starbucks points…

"You?" I'm a man too.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#50

Post by bobbles »

antod wrote: post #30
cmelbye wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In older stories, sure. But the "action hero" died a while ago. Have you not noticed the rise of the weak male lead in movies/TV/commercials? It's hugely prevalent in romantic comedies, but even TV shows like Modern Family (bumbling Phil and razor-sharp Claire) depict archetypes that are becoming quite common. The formula is a charming yet incompetent male lead who's mainly driven by sex, paired with a strong, capabl…

This isn't really a new thing. I presume it was already a cliche when The Flintstones came along.

Exactly, the sitcom approach has also generally been fat dude + thin woman for just as long a time
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