There's a constructive dismissal lawsuit if I've ever seen one.
Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
131–140 of 168 posts
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Unless you actually cure cancer next year, collect your $1billion and quit your job to focus on your family from then on. Why is a hard cut-off date required? If you take into account that your family extends into the future indefinitely (not just your children) and that there are gradual benefits (not just black-white) then spending time now to gradually improve the world for future generations (including those of…
> it's merely there to illustrate that it gets a lot more difficult to appreciate the value of a little personal time in the present if you have an unusual utility-function in your moral code that applies a lot more weight to the future than most people do. That actually comes off very egotistical. The damage you do to your family today by putting a simple job before them is likely to do damage far into the future. B…
> Because you aren't that important. The cure will almost happen (or not) with or without you. The best you can likely hope for is to accelerate it. Everyone is replaceable in a job. Everyone. Parents aren't.
By this standard I'd say that children are also replaceable, and therefore so are the parents. From the society's point of view, children are a commodity.
> That actually comes off very egotistical.
I strongly disagree. I find the opposite belief, that you should prioritize yourself and a small circle around you above all other people, to be much more self-centered. And it's part of the reason the world needs fixing in the first place - because most of the people tend to focus on themselves and their families at the expense of everyone else.
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
The question is about whether you'd have it say that or that you were a great father. It's rare to be able to do both, particularly if the company's CEO says having a child is "no excuse" to miss an event. Not a deadline or a board presentation or an earnings report. An event .
Pretty sure the ppl of Nasa/JPL who actually put a man on the moon, worked reasonable hours and almost never missed dinner with family. So, I don't think they're mutually exclusive EDIT: So, everybody was screwed then? I must have mixed anecdotes :)
RE your edit - that's probably part of the reason it took only 12 years after Sputnik to get a man on the moon - because for people working on it this wasn't a job, this was their life. They did it for the goal itself, and not for money.
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's kind of the point I'm making. Given a choice, why should I promote few people in my inner circle over hundreds, thousands or more other people? This really bothers me. There's a common mentality that says it's OK to harm countless of strangers in order to support yourself and your family. I think that is selfish.
Somehow we've gone from "Elon cares more about his business than he does about his employees - to the extreme." To: "Would it be OK to be a dick if you're curing cancer?" And when that didn't play, the argument was reframed again as: "You're harming countless strangers unless you're a dick." Twist it anyway you want, if someone wants to be a selfish dick, they should own it, not rationalize it. I'm pretty sure the co…
> If you can't prioritize (what should be) the most important of your personal relationships above what you want to do, it's unlikely that the real reason you working is because you have a surplus of love for the world.
Is having a surplus of love for the world a bad thing? I believe a lot of problems would solve themselves if we have more. Also, relationships are also something you want to do, you aren't forced into them at gunpoint.
Also the answer as it seems (without the context we don't know for sure) was dickish, but I wouldn't call it selfish. Just incredibly rude.
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#135A good number of "world changers" prioritize their work over everything else in their lives, including themselves and the people around them. They expect their team to do nothing less, so if he did say that, I'm not exactly surprised. This wouldn't work for me, and I'd imagine it wouldn't work for a lot of people who prioritize their families over whatever project they may be working on. I still like Musk and the thi…
History repeats itself and people who are trying to "change the world" don't care about any casualties on their way. Ironically, world could change so much by everyone being kind and grateful to others. No invention or conquest can bring this kind of change.
You're saying it as if Elon was Genghis Khan. He's not conquering anything, he's just trying to solve two of the big problems of humanity, and he invites volunteers to help him. You don't believe in his mission? Don't join, and don't take places because you want to "build a resume" (it seems to be a recent trend now). It's not like he doesn't keep saying that Tesla and SpaceX are not ordinary jobs.
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#136Well, isn't Elon Musk one of those guys who thinks he's going to live forever? He probably figures he can spend time with family 1000 years from now after things settle down a bit.
He said he plans to die on Mars ("just not on landing"). I guess he plans to do it being happy that the civilization is no longer facing imminent collapse because of energy and climate problems, and that humans are multiplanetary species.
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#137My first day at SpaceX I ran into a friend. I asked him how he was doing and he said he just had a kid. "How old is she now?" "Oh no, like, my wife just gave birth an hour ago." The guy was working through the birth of his first born. The story continued for months afterwards and it's not a good one. That and many other stories are what led me to quit. I took the summer off and didn't work. I hung out with my dog and…
>> I get working on big goals, I get working hard. I don't get throwing away everything else. It's not just your life it's the people who need a father and a friend. Agreed. The quote which finally got me to realize my family was more important than my job: "When you’re gone would you rather have your gravestone say, ‘He never missed a meeting.’ Or one that said, ‘He was a great father'."
An acquaintance who works for one of Boeing's manufacturing plants told me of an encounter he witnessed between a manager and another employee regarding how hard they were being worked. The manager told the employee, in all sincerity, that "if Boeing wanted them to have a family they would have been issued one."
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#138All the negative press and comments about this miss the point. The guy has very specific, very ambitious goals that he has a track record of achieving. He prioritizes those literally above everything and expects the same from key employees. Working at Tesla, which has already done a ton to change the entire car industry is a huge privilege, and no one's making you do it. If you can get a job there, you can get a job…
I am reminded of this famous Stallman incident, where he basically scorns at another developer for having a baby: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms
Which reminds me of this RMS classic:
http://www.art.net/Studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-d...
I can't say I disagree with RMS. Having a child is really nothing special. Every other person on the planet does that. And while I respect that for many parents, having their own kid is the best moment of their lives, I think RMS is right to point out that except said parents, no one else cares. It's a huge problem on social media now; one of the most annoying things is people continuously spamming everyone with photos of their newborns.
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was thinking of a generalization. Choosing between working on something important in the future for many people vs. spending time in the now with a few people you value. I.e. if you don't single out the event "birth of a child" but look at the more generalized category "spending time with family and friends" then the response may be more understandable. If Elon truly convinced himself that he's basically trying to…
That's just a rationalization. I really doubt Elon cares about anything but his own driving ambition. People who can't prioritize their own loved ones over their jobs, surely don't care for "humanity". They are the very definition of selfish. They simply do what they want first and then rationalize it afterwards. On top of that, these selfish people expect/demand that their employees work infinitely harder than they…
> I really doubt Elon cares about anything but his own driving ambition. People who can't prioritize their own loved ones over their jobs, surely don't care for "humanity". They are the very definition of selfish. They simply do what they want first and then rationalize it afterwards.
No, I think what you wrote is selfish and is a typical rationalization of having a botched moral compass. I should prioritize my own over the rest of the world, so it's ok to fuck everyone over as long as I and my family are happy. This is how a lot of world seems to operate. You wouldn't have companies polluting rivers, or shoppers cheating you on every occasion possible, if those people were not prioritizing themselves and their families over other humans. It's easy to rationalize the harm by saying to yourself, "I have kids to feed, so fuck those other people, I need that money".
> On top of that, these selfish people expect/demand that their employees work infinitely harder than they do on a ROI basis. Example: A start up founder may worked twice as many hours as the founding engineer but the founder stands to make a lot more than twice as much when the company has it's liquidation event.
While this may apply to many startups, it doesn't apply to SpaceX and Tesla, and it's disingenuous to discuss them in such terms. The ROI on electrification of transport, switching everyone away from fossil fuels and enabling life on another planet is fuckton lot for every single human being. It dwarfs most of the personal sacrifices you could make. And still, no one is telling you to do it; people who join those companies know up-front what's the goal, and how much dedication is required.
Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth
#140Is it me or is this post disappearing off the front page rather quickly?
It's probably being flagged, because with its lack of context, it's more of a smearing job than an actual revelation.