Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why People Are Irrational about Politics

spot.colorado.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 62 posts

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#31

Post by bobcostas55 »

michaelkeenan wrote: post #22
Natsu wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very interesting section. There's a citation on "There are three reasons why I disagree with this explanation. The first is that value questions are objective, and moral anti-realism is completely unjustified" which cites http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/objectiv.htm A page which does not, at present, exist - The requested URL /~huemer/objectiv.htm was not found on this server. Apache Server at spot.colorado…

I think the correct URL should be http://www.owl232.net/objectiv.htm

The crux of the argument is in 3.3...he's basically parroting the worst parts of Kant. The argument was destroyed by Hume before it was even put forth, ridiculed by Nietzsche (BGE 11, a very entertaining passage), and then had all its foundations removed by Quine in Two Dogmas.

This is not philosophy, it's badly-cloaked theology. Like cavemen attributing the thunder to a god, except even worse because now we have the tools and the knowledge to know there is no such thing.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#32

Post by xnull2guest »

calibraxis wrote: post #21
xnull2guest wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now propaganda makes it onto mass social media campaigns. Techniques include propagandizing "nudging" 'social influencers' who are hubs of social bonding and information. The US is known to use celebrities in their Twitter campaigns targeting the Middle East. Can you speak more about what literature you are aware of?

Bernays' 1928 book "Propaganda" is an entertaining intro. He's considered the father of modern public relations. It reads like satire, except he was serious. ( http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html ) Many like the BBC documentary "The Century Of The Self", on the origins of modern PR. (Easy to find online.) Nowadays of course, the field is way more advanced. Noam Chomsky's done well-known work in this…

Thank you, I was aware of these. Chomsky is a must, but he's so anarchist its easy to fall into an intellectual trap. Great resources.

I would add, to understand propaganda's current direction, the work of Cass Sunstein (whose Wikipedia article also reads farcically) including "Democracy and the Problem of Free Speech" and "Nudge". The father of "liberal paternalism" and "choice architecture", the Wikipedia article is full of great nuggets: “in light of astonishing economic and technological changes, we must doubt whether, as interpreted, the constitutional guarantee of free speech is adequately serving democratic goals.”

Cass Sunstein was the Administrator of the Obama Administration's Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#33

Post by MandingoSauce »

[deleted] wrote: post #13
[deleted] wrote: post #7

[deleted]

[deleted]

But you just articulated that... And yes, one can say that, just like you did, but the rhetoric wouldn't have any political weight to it. As the OP comment stated, the reason why gun control, abortion rights and social welfare programs are part of a political grouping is because they do have a logical connection to an ideology that sees the role of the state as a protector of the wellbeing of the individual. Gun control is connected to general welfare because gun violence is something that affects general welfare since disarmament would remove a means of violence. No guns means no possibility for guns to be used in acts of violence, and that ultimately means one less means of interpersonal violence. The ideology that underscores this would value that. But this argument for gun control is too simplistic that no real liberal actually subscribes to; it's a strawman. The real argument is more nuanced and is based on a sophisticated relationship we witness when we live our lives in our communities, as exposed across time.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#34

Post by EGreg »

Because people selectively cherry-pick facts to support the narratives they are invested in, and in doing so become more invested. Both narratives can be supported using data, provided one interprets the data in a certain way. Same with religions. Very rarely does a slam dunk case appear totally disproving one particular explanatory narrative.

Karl Popper's "Science as Falsification" essay is very useful here.

And furthermore, many of the propecies are self-fulfilling. For example, if atheism were true, it is still the case that Jews around the world have never forgotten about Israel and Jerusalem and have at long last returned there.

You can also see this in technical fields. The Black-Scholes valuation model may or may not have been a good way to price derivatives, but once everyone started using it, it BECAME the best way to price derivatives because everyone used it.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#35

Post by hibikir »

michaelkeenan wrote: post #24
dreamdu5t wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voter preferences affect votes - not political platforms. Political platforms espoused by candidates are reflective of the candidates preferences - not the voters.

I think that isn't correct, because if it were ever correct, the first candidate willing to choose their platform based on what most appeals to voters would win. I think that has already occurred, and politics is dominated by politicians who adjust their positions to whatever will appeal to voters.

It's more complicated than that. They adjust their position to whatever will lead to the most votes, but that often will include things that will not appeal to voters, but will appeal to donors that then will then provide resources to appeal to voters in another issue.

In areas that do not sway many votes, we might as well have an oligarchy: A lot of gain to a few often defeats a small loss to the many, even if the total loss actually exceeds the total gain. Then, whether a group can lobby for regulation depends on a variety of predictable factors. It's the whole reason right to work legislation destroys unions.

This is not new theory. The Logic of Collective Action by Olson covered this 50 years ago.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#36

Post by WalterBright »

EGreg wrote: post #34

Because people selectively cherry-pick facts to support the narratives they are invested in, and in doing so become more invested. Both narratives can be supported using data, provided one interprets the data in a certain way. Same with religions. Very rarely does a slam dunk case appear totally disproving one particular explanatory narrative. Karl Popper's "Science as Falsification" essay is very useful here. And fu…

Doesn't this imply that all political opinions and regimes are essentially equivalent?

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#38

Post by bovermyer »

Liver wrote: post #15

Let's face it, political parties are designed to divide the people. Why that ? Because political power like every power seeks its own limits. It looks to increase its own power. In a (so-called) democracy, government negociates the boundaries of its own power with the people. One way to get more power for the governement is to weaken the people by dividing them. Now you see the people divided in many different ways w…

This implies that government, in and of itself, is a conspiracy to perpetuate consolidation of power. That's enough of a broad generalization that I can't take it seriously - while it may be true for some forms of organization, I don't think we have enough data (or the right KIND of data) to actually make a call like that, let alone claim that political parties in particular are defined by power orchestration by a central entity.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#39

Post by sjtrny »

dreamdu5t wrote: post #4

It's not that people are irrational. People have different prefences . There are winners and losers in politics, and peoples' preferences are often mutually exclusive. The idea that there is some kind of "correct" political position is absurd and grossly ignorant of what politics IS. Example: Some people think there shouldn't be an income tax. Someone else thinks there should be. There is no such thing as a "correct"…

There is no "correct" position. But there are positions that are objectively better if you measure outcomes like health, education, safety, prosperity etc etc.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#40

Post by refurb »

sjtrny wrote: post #37

No mention of believing what your parents told you to believe (consciously or otherwise). This seems to be the biggest factor among people I know.

Or the idea that you rebel against whatever politics your parents held. Conservative parents? I'm a liberal! Liberal parents? I'm a conservative!
Post reply on HN