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Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

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Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Michael from other parts of the Internet. He tends to write essays and blogs on all sorts of things. He is very picky about what company he will work for, for example he doesn't like Amazon's labor rules so he refuses to work for Amazon or any company with labor rules just like them. He doesn't want to work with Windows, instead he focuses on Linux and Mac OSX. He has Java skills, and lists them on his resume,…

I was curious how "discrimination" is defined, at least in the dictionary. It is: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things. If someone is mentally ill such that it's obvious to folks around them, and they communicate poorly compared to another candidate who is in other ways equal, then is it discrimination not to hire them? (not saying this description applies to anyone here; I'…

I am particularly good at public speaking. For example I got a standing ovation from a thousand developers when I gave a talk at the Apple World Wide Developers Conference. I've also spoken at lots of user groups, including the Naval Postgraduate School Macintosh User Group.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are both right though. 1) Discrimination is real and should be discouraged and may indeed have affected Michael's chances at finding work but ferreting out discrimination and fixing its isn't a great use of an individual job seekers' time when so many other people can use good workers but 2) if the points about his choosiness are true-- and I don't know if they are-- they would probably affect things as well in a…

There is also this article on him disrupting a hackathon: http://blog.up.co/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-threats-could-det... https://twitter.com/dhawalc/status/209088242094571520/photo/... Not saying it is true or false, but they show up in a Google search. They could be a factor. I also found this tweet: https://twitter.com/MisterMarkup/status/196368916501626881 Edit: Added Tweet

I was lecturing the Portland Startup Weekend on engineering ethics. My point was that unethical practices such as those exhibited by the Portland Startup Weekend lead to such practices as industrial control systems that have laughably weak security.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#53
post #19

It would be very helpful not only to me, but to people like me, were potential employers to comply with the labor laws. Specifically, the various state laws regarding age discrimination - in Oregon, one may not discriminate for reasons of age against people over forty. There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at…

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

"When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church - and there was nobody left to be concerned." -- Pastor Martin Niemöller

Some things are more important than work: Hitler put the mentally ill in concentration camps long before he put the Jewish people there.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#54
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

Your advice would surely help him and every one who reads it find a job. And if everyone did it, there would not be anyone on the web who posted about even minor treatable mental issues such as depression. Many, maybe millions, who might be helped by that wouldn't be. After all, each such post easily reaches thousands who have not found treatment yet. It might also be wise for job seeks over 35 to dye their hair or b…

"reaches thousands"

At its peak, the copy of Living with Schizoaffective Disorder that I have on my own website - there are copies elsewhere - had 8,000 readers per month.

The State of California Mental Health Department placed it on a reading list that they distribute to their county clinics.

I was able to give some closure to a grieving mother whose son low-level formatted his hard drive then killed himself for no apparent reason.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#55
post #17

Don't this guy too seriously. He made people take a long APL course as part of their job interview process.

I agree that nobody should take me too seriously. I often take myself too seriously and it is exhausting and thankless work.

On the other hand, I disagree with your assertion that I made people take a course as part of a hiring process. I simply said that I’d hire someone if they knew some things and 27 of my candidates who didn’t know those things asked if I would teach them for fee. I agreed to offer a three-week course on condition they wanted to learn for its own sake and that they were NOT doing it to get a job because I wasn’t guaranteeing anyone would get hired and, besides, the chance any one person would get hired was perhaps 4%. In the end a bunch of them proved to be superb and I hired two instead of one as I’d originally hoped. And I got a few others jobs elsewhere. I didn’t have to do that, but I did. And they didn’t have to learn what they did, but they did.

You can accuse me of being biased in favor of people who like learning things for its own sake and who know how to do the job I need done. But if you are going to accuse people of forcing time-consuming education on candidates then I’d hope you’ll spend time going after employers who force you to have an irrelevant degree from a costly university before they will even let your resume past some idiotic filter.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious how "discrimination" is defined, at least in the dictionary. It is: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things. If someone is mentally ill such that it's obvious to folks around them, and they communicate poorly compared to another candidate who is in other ways equal, then is it discrimination not to hire them? (not saying this description applies to anyone here; I'…

I'm no lawyer but these issues usually fall under "fit"-- which is legal. If there's an email floating around saying, "I think this guy has a mental disorder" and they get sued, yeah there's a case. But it usually never gets that far.

True I studied employment law, you have to prove that they discriminated against you. Record the meeting and find them saying they can't hire you due to a mental illness, or subpoena their email and hope they wrote they won't hire you due to a mental illness. If you don't have this evidence, no lawyer will take your case, and the EEOC won't support you.

They could just write down "overqualified" or "lacking social skills" or "doesn't get along with others" as reasons and not even mention a mental illness.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dylan, Noah here from the article. Let's put Michael's specific situation aside for a moment. The truth is, neither of us knows WHY he isn't finding work. We each might have our own inklings as to why but there are surely some causation/correlation flaws we have no insight into. (And I will get to this) So let's take him out of the equation and create a fictional person having a hard time finding work-- call him Bob.…

I know Michael from other parts of the Internet. He tends to write essays and blogs on all sorts of things. He is very picky about what company he will work for, for example he doesn't like Amazon's labor rules so he refuses to work for Amazon or any company with labor rules just like them. He doesn't want to work with Windows, instead he focuses on Linux and Mac OSX. He has Java skills, and lists them on his resume,…

I won't do work that I regard as being unethical, nor will I seek work that I regard as not being of lasting value.

I'm OK with any other kind of work. I have a wide variety of experience, and am quick to learn.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also this article on him disrupting a hackathon: http://blog.up.co/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-threats-could-det... https://twitter.com/dhawalc/status/209088242094571520/photo/... Not saying it is true or false, but they show up in a Google search. They could be a factor. I also found this tweet: https://twitter.com/MisterMarkup/status/196368916501626881 Edit: Added Tweet

I was lecturing the Portland Startup Weekend on engineering ethics. My point was that unethical practices such as those exhibited by the Portland Startup Weekend lead to such practices as industrial control systems that have laughably weak security.

They seem to have taken your comments out of context then.

One more, from a dead website: https://web.archive.org/web/20120505130855/http://mobile.ore...

A person who does Interviews who Googles your name will uncover this sort of stuff. They will read it and not give you the benefit of the doubt. You won't get a chance to explain that you were talking about sloppy practices that lead to industrial accidents.

Instead they will read where you got ejected from hackathons for allegedly making bomb threats, and then move on to the next candidate.

I think this is a big factor in why you don't get jobs and contracts.

You also exposed the software consultant problem of not being paid on CNN during that Joe Stack event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLV7jydPJ8

If an interviewer had watched that show, they could have a negative view of you and remember you had exposed the software consulting industry of being a hard life and not always being paid.

You have been a critic of the startup scene, you have been a critic of the software consultant career, you have been a critic of so many things that it gives you a negative reputation with recruiters and interviewers. All of this is revealed by a few Google searches of your name. On top of that you are very picky on what company you work for and what development tools and OS you will use. These things are seen as being negative, and recruiters and interviewers want to see positive things, people not complaining about the industry but instead solving problems and working with others as part of a team.

All of these things raise red flags and prevent you from being hired. The major factors are not your mental illness, but these other things that can be revealed by Google and other search engines. There is also a criminal and financial/credit background check that employers/contractors/clients do prior to hiring that also has to be done. They will see that the police ejected you from Hacker Dojo etc, and see the times when you were without money and owing back debt and back taxes. If they see you have bad credit, they might worry that you are more likely to steal from the company. This is true for federal background checks for government contracts.

Those things are what I uncovered with just a simple Google search, and I sure there is more that can be found.

Your essay on your mental health: http://www.warplife.com/mdc/books/schizoaffective-disorder/

It is the least of your worries.

You also point out that the software problem isn't about bugs, it is about human beings. Which is kind of controversial:

http://www.warplife.com/jonathan-swift/books/software-proble...

Some people adopt the philosophy of a stoic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

They don't complain about things, they study problems and how to solve them with logic. When you discover a problem, you don't criticize the industry, you don't get negative, you work on a solution and stay positive and stay in a good mood instead of a bad mood. When you discover a problem, it is an opportunity for you to find a way to solve it. This is how many people have become a success, and how many startups get founded.

I think you are misunderstood, I think you have a great amount of knowledge, I think clients miss out when they reject you, but you have a negative image on the Internet and in real life that just drives people away from you.

I myself deal with negative thoughts, when I write something criticizing something or being negative here on hacker news I get downvoted. I have to remember that I should stay positive and find solutions to a problem if I discover a problem. It is positivism and creativity that I need to be focused on, and so should you.

Edit: typos and better analysis and advice.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#59
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it sounds like they started out with a open house for everyone who applied, regardless of qualifications, instead of phone screens. I understand your point about the phone screen, but found that this is a trade-off. The phone screen was very ineffective for us in letting people know who we are, our size, our location, what we do on a daily basis. The open house format lets the prospective employees see us as we are…

Thanks for the additional details. I suppose the usefulness of this depends a lot on how many positions you're looking to fill, and at what level of skill. It sounds like you're using it to fill multiple entry-level positions, where it makes more sense. I suppose the people there know that there are multiple positions, so don't feel quite so much like they have to compete with everybody else to get hired. And if it's…

The key word in the open house issue is "open" to allow for transparency currently lost in the limited disclosure game that is the modern interview process. That benefits everyone. Not to mention we offer evening events to respect those with full time jobs.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#60
post #19

It would be very helpful not only to me, but to people like me, were potential employers to comply with the labor laws. Specifically, the various state laws regarding age discrimination - in Oregon, one may not discriminate for reasons of age against people over forty. There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at…

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

I edited the header on my site to make my intentions more clear: it is more important to me to educate the public about mental illness, than it is to have a job.

Even so, it would be nice to have a job, and not to be faced with discrimination.

Consider that most today revere the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior as a saint. But during his lifetime, he was not permitted to stay in hotels during his travels, and so had to sleep in his car. He wrote once about how that really got him down.

http://www.warplife.com/

Edit: Suppose I did get a job. What problems would that solve? In the US, the mentally ill are legally permitted to wear their own clothes, as well as to manage their own financial affairs while we are in mental hospitals. Even so, the hospital staff either is unaware of these facts, or refused to abide by them.

This is the case even if one is on an involuntary hold.

If I got a job, would that enable some other mentally ill webmaster to pay for his domain renewal, so he doesn't lose his livelihood?

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