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Chile is introducing free higher education

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Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#81

Post by gyardley »

MCRed wrote: post #64
wordbank wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but you're too fast on making conclusions. Also you're totally ignoring the lack of vertical social mobility in the Chilean society because poor people have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids. > It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. This statement is too generalized. But even if it's correct then you can't pinpoint it to education. There's a…

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

Chile is corrupt from top to bottom. It's true that you can't bribe the cops, and Chileans are very proud of this (primarily because you can bribe the cops in Argentina), but access to opportunity in Chile is almost 100% dependent on who you know. The entire business class has raised nepotism to an art form.

While free university education sounds good, even going to a top-ranked school like Universidad de Chile isn't going to help much if you've got the wrong last name and don't have the right pitutos.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#82

Post by Daishiman »

the_af wrote: post #52
xname wrote: post #38

Is it fair to people who do not go to college?

Yes, it's fair. Just like a lot of public works and services are funded by taxes even if you in particular don't use them. More importantly, fairness is a trade-off. Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments…

> . Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments.

This is patently, obscenely false.

A value-added economy depends on qualified, skilled labor. If the pool of people with higher education is smaller, you will have less potential to develop industries with that requirement. Training costs will fall on companies (which will be onerous and will not supplant a 4-year degree), and costs for the smaller labor pool go up.

It is in the interests of all developing economies to have talent in their workforce. It's a significant limiting factor in many industries in Latin America.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#83

Post by dorfsmay »

hk__2 wrote: post #19
msvalkon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very generalizing argument. Universities are free (paid by taxes obviously) in Finland, but there is no such thing like what you describe. In here the only prerequisite is that you have finished high school, then you can take the entry exams.. It's also not uncommon for someone to go into a university later in their life. My cs courses had a good bunch of people in their fifties re-educating themselves.

In France you don’t even have any entry exams for universities.

Space is not infinite, they check your 'file' and admission is based on your grades.

Also, priority is (or at least was years ago) given to people who come out of high school, making it impossible to get into university if you didn't go directly from high school.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#84

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

nico wrote: post #41
rpalmaotero wrote: post #33

I'd like to add that right now an even more important discussion in Chile is about the quality of higher education. After the educational laws were modified in the 1980s in order to allow the existence of private universities and technical institutes, many for-profit institutions appeared, even though educational profit is forbidden (institutes found obscure ways to achieve this). A direct consequence of those for-pr…

It doesn't really make sense to forbid profit in education (at least the way the Chilean government does it). The best universities in the world make a lot of money (e.g. Harvard, MIT, Stanford). Opening the educational market should create competition and drive quality up. Of course the market should be regulated, but forbidding profit is not really the way to go.

There is a huge difference between "universities with a lot of money" like Harvard and for-profit universities like Corinthian College.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#85

Post by gyardley »

illumen wrote: post #51
MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

Is this good for the poor people who can not afford it? Will it make a difference? Certainly. Will this result in a more highly skilled, and a more highly educated population? Yes. People should still be able to afford private schools if they can now. The American idea that you can't mix socialism and capitalism is absurd! (urg, just saying these words makes me feel like I'm using outdated old ideas from the 1800's!)…

How will it make a difference?

Say you're a poor Chilean and thanks to this new policy you get a free ride at Universidad de Chile or Católica, the two top universities in Chile. You're well educated, but you've got the wrong last name and no connections - who on earth is going to hire you for anything? Say you start a business. Who's going to give you capital? Who's going to even do business with you, when they've never heard of you or anyone in your family?

This is a way to placate the often-radical student movement in Chile, but I can't see it helping poor Chileans that much if at all. Perhaps they can get their educations and then emigrate to a place with less nepotism.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#86

Post by the_af »

Daishiman wrote: post #82
the_af wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's fair. Just like a lot of public works and services are funded by taxes even if you in particular don't use them. More importantly, fairness is a trade-off. Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments…

> . Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments. This is patently, obscenely false. A value-added economy depends on qualified, skilled labor. If the pool of people with higher education is smaller, you will h…

Oh, no disagreement here. My comment was poorly worded. I meant "even if it didn't particularly benefit", but like you said, it's in the overall best interest of everyone in the country that the majority of the population has access to good quality education. And this is true even if you don't think in terms of the workforce.

With an exception, of course: some people would rather the rest of the people weren't as well educated as themselves. That way they can continue paying them miserably low salaries. It's a self-destructive behavior, but it still happens, because some people don't think long term. I didn't want to address this in my original comment.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#87

Post by nico »

sheepmullet wrote: post #76
nico wrote: post #36

Many problems with the article: 1) There's no way Chilean education is the most expensive in the world. Tuition for an engineering degree at the best universities in Chile is around USD 5k/year, which is way cheaper than pretty much any university in the US. (edit: in fact here's a ranking, and Chile is not even mentioned on it http://www.businessinsider.com/hsbc-australia-is-the-most-ex... ) 2) The tax hike was a bu…

On point 1) if the average salary in Chile is less than $5k/year then it costs more than a years salary to pay for a years schooling. That is incredibly expensive. By contrast in Australia it's around $10-12k/year for a local and the average full time wage is $75k/year! If Chilean education was as cheap as Australia's then a good education would cost less than $1k/year.

You are right, my bad. Actual average salary is USD 10k/year. Also notice the USD 5k/year is tuition for an engineering degree (2nd most expensive - only to med school) at the best universities, so it's pretty much one of the most expensive degrees you can get in Chile.

Also, it is really easy to get a low-interest student loan (which a lot of people don't even pay).

My guess is that access to education in Australia is definitely better than in Chile, but I wouldn't say education in Chile is the most expensive in the world.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#89

Post by TTPrograms »

illumen wrote: post #51
MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

Is this good for the poor people who can not afford it? Will it make a difference? Certainly. Will this result in a more highly skilled, and a more highly educated population? Yes. People should still be able to afford private schools if they can now. The American idea that you can't mix socialism and capitalism is absurd! (urg, just saying these words makes me feel like I'm using outdated old ideas from the 1800's!)…

Where exactly are you getting the figure that 45% of the USA is illiterate? Measured rates are closer to 1%.

That kind of absurd exaggeration really discredits your point.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#90

Post by MarkPNeyer »

gyardley wrote: post #81
MCRed wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

Chile is corrupt from top to bottom. It's true that you can't bribe the cops, and Chileans are very proud of this (primarily because you can bribe the cops in Argentina), but access to opportunity in Chile is almost 100% dependent on who you know. The entire business class has raised nepotism to an art form. While free university education sounds good, even going to a top-ranked school like Universidad de Chile isn't…

> access to opportunity in Chile is almost 100% dependent on who you know

isn't this true everywhere?

how can you take an opportunity from a person you don't know?

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