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Chile is introducing free higher education

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Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#71

Post by MCRed »

anigbrowl wrote: post #66
MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

We have government-sponsored higher ed in many Eurozone countries and I think they do quite a good job at turning out critical independent thinkers. Using the US as your only point of comparison seems somewhat misleading to me - I'm a good bit to the left of you and I also think a lot of US public education is a shambles. However, I think there are multiple complex reasons for that and it's not as simple as 'public f…

Oh, I'd never say there aren't lots of factors. As another person pointed out, culture is a factor too. The US seems to have been in a cultural decline for much of the last 100 years.

You can't make direct comparisons, absolutely.

But, you can make an argument about incentives and that's what I'm doing.

When government is in control you have no choice. You are forced to pay for it and you get what they decide you get. You can't opt out.

When things are privately financed you have choice. Every company has to keep its shareholders, employees and investors happy. They have to do all this and compete well, and that's not easy. But their incentives are more in line with each of those constituencies.

When it comes to government I find little alignment-- even elections have been completely compromised, and I'm not just talking about the rampant election fraud that's been going on since 2001 (when Gore won the election) but is not talked au tanymore-- I'm talking about how the system of elections is set up to deny anyone but the two parties a meaningful chance, and within the two parties their selections at high levels are not really democratic either. (Remember the Nevada republican convention that was cancelled to keep the Ron Paul delegates from voting for him?)

I am making a generalization... but I think history is on my side.

Look at the degree inflation in the USA and the rampant debt that kids are graduating with and yet they can't repay because they can't get good jobs.

That's a distortion that has messed things up... and you would't have it if there was no "free money" of subsidized loans and the consequent incentive to pursue a degree program that would result in you being able to pay back the loans.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#72

Post by oldmanjay »

the_af wrote: post #52
xname wrote: post #38

Is it fair to people who do not go to college?

Yes, it's fair. Just like a lot of public works and services are funded by taxes even if you in particular don't use them. More importantly, fairness is a trade-off. Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments…

My main gripe with the language of progressive politics is the redefinition of words like "fair."

Intellectual honesty demands that you call things what they are. Marketing demands you redefine things to make people feel the right warm-and-fuzzies. What you did is the latter.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#73

Post by rtpg »

MCRed wrote: post #64
wordbank wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but you're too fast on making conclusions. Also you're totally ignoring the lack of vertical social mobility in the Chilean society because poor people have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids. > It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. This statement is too generalized. But even if it's correct then you can't pinpoint it to education. There's a…

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

>they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.)

Honestly, is this not the case with pretty much every country in the world? Most people are looking for a stable job, not "world domination".

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#74

Post by MCRed »

illumen wrote: post #51
MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

Is this good for the poor people who can not afford it? Will it make a difference? Certainly. Will this result in a more highly skilled, and a more highly educated population? Yes. People should still be able to afford private schools if they can now. The American idea that you can't mix socialism and capitalism is absurd! (urg, just saying these words makes me feel like I'm using outdated old ideas from the 1800's!)…

America is a mix of socialism and capitalism, and everywhere that socialism has touched it's been a bad experience.

You give a good example in your response: %45 illiteracy only benefits the people who are currently in power. That's your statement, and who is in power? Who controls the schools? The government. How do they benefit? They have a populace which is sheeplike and easily controlled.

That's the power dynamic I'd like to break.

Home schooled kids do better than public schooled kids and by a wide margin. But instead of burdening every family with having to be a complete school to themselves,s why can't several families band together and take turns? If one parent is an engineer, then they can take a day off or on a saturday teach engineering topics to the groups kids. This would lower the burden and provide higher variety-- this would be a makeshift school at very low cost. Even poor people could do it... but of course that would threaten the government's schooling system and so it's not allowed.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#75

Post by MCRed »

rtpg wrote: post #73
MCRed wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

>they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) Honestly, is this not the case with pretty much every country in the world? Most people are looking for a stable job, not "world domination".

To a greater or lesser degree. In america if you do a startup and you fail, you're not seen as a failure and untouchable.

In chile that's more the case, and it can really hurt your career.

This is why Startup Chile is such a brilliant program... it's single handedly introducing entrepreneurship to chileans... and the ones I met really liked it.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#76

Post by sheepmullet »

nico wrote: post #36

Many problems with the article: 1) There's no way Chilean education is the most expensive in the world. Tuition for an engineering degree at the best universities in Chile is around USD 5k/year, which is way cheaper than pretty much any university in the US. (edit: in fact here's a ranking, and Chile is not even mentioned on it http://www.businessinsider.com/hsbc-australia-is-the-most-ex... ) 2) The tax hike was a bu…

On point 1) if the average salary in Chile is less than $5k/year then it costs more than a years salary to pay for a years schooling. That is incredibly expensive.

By contrast in Australia it's around $10-12k/year for a local and the average full time wage is $75k/year!

If Chilean education was as cheap as Australia's then a good education would cost less than $1k/year.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#77

Post by MCRed »

galfarragem wrote: post #70
MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

I respect your opinions (i've read other comments that you made) but this comment is full of fast conclusions and fallacies. If I could downvote it would be my first downvote ever.

If I had a fallacy or made a "Fast conclusion" please explain it. I don't get this "fast conclusion"... yes, I know more about a subject than I'm explaining-- I tend to be too verbose -- and so I give a quick summary of the reasons behind my conclusion. But that doesn't make them bad (as you imply by grouping them with fallacies).

I think if you make the accusation of fallacies you should show where the error is, in specific, and give at least an argument for why its in error (Rather than merely asserting its wrong.)

Otherwise isn't it kinda like saying "Your thinking is fallacious" which is sorta talking to the person rather than the point.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#78

Post by raimille1 »

What the hell? I'm chilean, born and raised. I've been in the US for about 9 years and this depicts the problem the US has interpreting latin american news. Did you guys know Bachelet announced in an INTERVIEW she had asked for the resignations of all her ministers and in the coming days would work on building a new team? Whatever the single quoted person on this article saying Chile will have free higher education by March 2016 is looking for a job right now. This government is so full of shit not even the president could stand her own ministers! World: please do your reading first before posting about something you have absolutely NO idea. All this does is give more power to the socialists running these countries for their own power agenda and wealth. Chile's economy is where it is thanks to Sebastian Pinera, go research it. Like the saying says ... Socialism is a great thing! Until you run out of other people's money.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#79

Post by iamcurious »

oldmanjay wrote: post #72
the_af wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's fair. Just like a lot of public works and services are funded by taxes even if you in particular don't use them. More importantly, fairness is a trade-off. Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments…

My main gripe with the language of progressive politics is the redefinition of words like "fair." Intellectual honesty demands that you call things what they are. Marketing demands you redefine things to make people feel the right warm-and-fuzzies. What you did is the latter.

I'm curious. What is the definition of fairness and how does it not apply in that comment?

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#80

Post by the_af »

oldmanjay wrote: post #72
the_af wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's fair. Just like a lot of public works and services are funded by taxes even if you in particular don't use them. More importantly, fairness is a trade-off. Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments…

My main gripe with the language of progressive politics is the redefinition of words like "fair." Intellectual honesty demands that you call things what they are. Marketing demands you redefine things to make people feel the right warm-and-fuzzies. What you did is the latter.

How so?

It is fair to the country that a greater number of people have access to good quality education. The lesser unfairness that this causes in the people who don't care about public education is acceptable. Same as the lesser unfairness that public roads cause to people who don't use roads is also acceptable. This is the greater good we are talking about.

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