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Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

greatergood.berkeley.edu

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Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#21

Post by AnthonyMouse »

streptomycin wrote: post #6
benkuykendall wrote: post #2

Unconscious racial bias comes up a lot in these issues. Yet I am at a loss to see a mechanism by which we could even begin to remedy it. What steps could proposed programs take?

Lots of ideas come to mind. Probably all bad ideas, but ideas nonetheless: * Judges and juries are only allowed to be the same race as the defendant. * Increase/decrease the sentencing guidelines by X% for a certain race. 20 years max for a certain offense for Race Y, 15 years max for Race Z. * Preferentially give better public defenders to people of certain races, or maybe just give them money to hire non-public def…

The reason those are all bad ideas is that they're all attempting to treat the symptom rather than the problem.

If the problem is that people are dumping alkali waste into the reservoir, your suggestion is to ignore that and then dump in acid to even it out. Making the pH neutral isn't the same thing as making the water clean.

We have to solve the underlying problem.

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#22

Post by hackuser »

jquery wrote: post #11

Isn't "unconscious bias" merely humans using their instinctual bayesian reasoning systems as priors? I don't see how it's possible to eliminate that, nor that the outcome would necessarily be desirable. Educating people that there are certain biases they shouldn't bring into the courtroom is a proposed solution, but I don't think it gets us anywhere closer to the platonic ideal of objective justice. It just mucks wit…

> Isn't "unconscious bias" merely humans using their instinctual bayesian reasoning systems as priors?

No, it's just tribal instincts against the 'other'; no prior experience is necessary; people will kill people from groups they have no expereince with because they are different. Consider homophobia: Is it because the attackers have experience being assaulted by gays? What about violence against women? (In fact, I think reality may be reverse of your theory: The same people are victimized over and over; the weak are abused by the powerful.)

The solution is conceptually simple: Teach people to see the other groups as 'one of us'. It does happen over the long run; I read research that within a few generations, for example, new immigrant groups mostly inter-marry with others (arguably blacks became the equivalent of new immigrants when they finally had full legal rights in the 1960s, and racial intermarriage now is growing quickly). Consider Protestants and Catholics, who used to riot against each other. 55 years ago, a Catholic winning the Presidency was a big deal. Now nobody cares or notices; a Catholic marrying a Protestant is completely unremarkable.

Rather than arbitrarily causing generations of suffering, we can learn to do better now.

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#24

Post by streptomycin »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #21
streptomycin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of ideas come to mind. Probably all bad ideas, but ideas nonetheless: * Judges and juries are only allowed to be the same race as the defendant. * Increase/decrease the sentencing guidelines by X% for a certain race. 20 years max for a certain offense for Race Y, 15 years max for Race Z. * Preferentially give better public defenders to people of certain races, or maybe just give them money to hire non-public def…

The reason those are all bad ideas is that they're all attempting to treat the symptom rather than the problem. If the problem is that people are dumping alkali waste into the reservoir, your suggestion is to ignore that and then dump in acid to even it out. Making the pH neutral isn't the same thing as making the water clean. We have to solve the underlying problem.

Solve the underlying problem? Babies exhibit racial bias. We're going to need some serious genetic engineering applied to the brain to solve the underlying problem. I don't think that's happening any time soon.

Your solution is to ignore this and instead offer a platitude so you don't have to think about an actual solution. I'm not saying I know the perfect solution, but I'm pretty sure it's not a platitude.

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#25

Post by classicsnoot »

Hytosys wrote: post #23
classicsnoot wrote: post #3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines not being snarky; i think this one is a clear 'No.'

This is a bullshit response. Did you not read the article? It offers a fair share of proven optimism.

Wow, tiger. First off, i stand by my assessment. IMO if the bias were to be stripped from the Justice System, that would mean firing literally everyone and building a new one using computers and duct tape which, as every school child knows, have no bias. Secondly, "fair share of proven optimism"? In my head that translates to, "we think that maybe this might help a little"... so... the answer is still 'No.'. Just my $0.02

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#26

Post by hackuser »

hackuser wrote: post #22
jquery wrote: post #11

Isn't "unconscious bias" merely humans using their instinctual bayesian reasoning systems as priors? I don't see how it's possible to eliminate that, nor that the outcome would necessarily be desirable. Educating people that there are certain biases they shouldn't bring into the courtroom is a proposed solution, but I don't think it gets us anywhere closer to the platonic ideal of objective justice. It just mucks wit…

> Isn't "unconscious bias" merely humans using their instinctual bayesian reasoning systems as priors? No, it's just tribal instincts against the 'other'; no prior experience is necessary; people will kill people from groups they have no expereince with because they are different. Consider homophobia: Is it because the attackers have experience being assaulted by gays? What about violence against women? (In fact, I t…

Adding to my comment above (I'm too late to edit):

In my experience, it's the poeple with the least experience with the 'other' group who are the most biased.

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#27

Post by jquery »

hackuser wrote: post #22
jquery wrote: post #11

Isn't "unconscious bias" merely humans using their instinctual bayesian reasoning systems as priors? I don't see how it's possible to eliminate that, nor that the outcome would necessarily be desirable. Educating people that there are certain biases they shouldn't bring into the courtroom is a proposed solution, but I don't think it gets us anywhere closer to the platonic ideal of objective justice. It just mucks wit…

> Isn't "unconscious bias" merely humans using their instinctual bayesian reasoning systems as priors? No, it's just tribal instincts against the 'other'; no prior experience is necessary; people will kill people from groups they have no expereince with because they are different. Consider homophobia: Is it because the attackers have experience being assaulted by gays? What about violence against women? (In fact, I t…

> Teach people to see the other groups as 'one of us'.

You're thinking in very surface terms and minimizing the argument of the opposition. What if the group values are utterly alien to the other group? For example, are people to be taught that the Crips gang is 'one of us.'? Or Neo-Nazis are 'one of us.'?

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#28

Post by Hytosys »

classicsnoot wrote: post #25
Hytosys wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bullshit response. Did you not read the article? It offers a fair share of proven optimism.

Wow, tiger. First off, i stand by my assessment. IMO if the bias were to be stripped from the Justice System, that would mean firing literally everyone and building a new one using computers and duct tape which, as every school child knows, have no bias. Secondly, "fair share of proven optimism"? In my head that translates to, "we think that maybe this might help a little"... so... the answer is still 'No.'. Just my…

>Secondly, "fair share of proven optimism"? In my head that translates to, "we think that maybe this might help a little"...

That clearly translates to "no, I still haven't read the article."

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#29

Post by hackuser »

jquery wrote: post #27
hackuser wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't "unconscious bias" merely humans using their instinctual bayesian reasoning systems as priors? No, it's just tribal instincts against the 'other'; no prior experience is necessary; people will kill people from groups they have no expereince with because they are different. Consider homophobia: Is it because the attackers have experience being assaulted by gays? What about violence against women? (In fact, I t…

> Teach people to see the other groups as 'one of us'. You're thinking in very surface terms and minimizing the argument of the opposition. What if the group values are utterly alien to the other group? For example, are people to be taught that the Crips gang is 'one of us.'? Or Neo-Nazis are 'one of us.'?

> What if the group values are utterly alien to the other group? For example, are people to be taught that the Crips gang is 'one of us.'? Or Neo-Nazis are 'one of us.'?

Yes, and I think that's a great example. What enables people like Neo-Nazis to do horrible things to others is to first think of their victims as alien (to "objectify" them). This is well-known and long has been used by leaders that want to promote these horrible things; the original Nazis and the Hutus (just naming two off the top of my head) before their respective genocides, ran public media campaigns conditioning the public to objectify and despise Jewish/Tutsi people. In a very different context, soldiers often objectify their enemies as gooks, ragheads, etc. (again, it's a psychological necessity before a human does horrible things to others). You can see the same thing all the time in less dangerous situations, for example in how many male abusers talk about women.

It's important to see that the Nazis aren't 'utterly alien', but normal humans like you and me (a very well-regarded, well-known book on this issue is Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil"). If we don't understand the reality of how people do bad things, we won't be able to prevent them. And the reality is that we all are prone to the same thinking and mistakes (though on a much smaller, less damaging scale, hopefully!). It's also important to realize that from the perspective of the perpetrators (including Nazis), they are doing nothing wrong: The victim is indeed alien and threatening (or otherwise deserving). Racists think that of blacks, for example.

Re: Can We Reduce Bias in Criminal Justice?

#30

Post by classicsnoot »

Hytosys wrote: post #28
classicsnoot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, tiger. First off, i stand by my assessment. IMO if the bias were to be stripped from the Justice System, that would mean firing literally everyone and building a new one using computers and duct tape which, as every school child knows, have no bias. Secondly, "fair share of proven optimism"? In my head that translates to, "we think that maybe this might help a little"... so... the answer is still 'No.'. Just my…

>Secondly, "fair share of proven optimism"? In my head that translates to, "we think that maybe this might help a little"... That clearly translates to "no, I still haven't read the article."

Ok. Having reread the entire thing twice (just for you) i can positively say that i stand by my "no." The phrase "reduce subconscious bias" appears multiple times with no explanation as to how that may actually work.

This is a classic case of top down initiative. The leaders can say whatever they want; it is the foot soldiers that implement policy. As long as there is an entrenched, aged constabulary educating the new recruits, the inherent biases of thugs with badges will continue.

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