Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions • Hacker News Board

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#21

Post by mikecb » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:38 PM UTC

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #7

They mention gigapixel cameras, my (brief) googling couldn't find any evidence that such a thing exists, except for an experimental one at Duke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQXHP7TFUE . Although I suppose a gigapixel photo can be made by taking pictures by multiple cameras at the same time just as well. Still, wouldn't that sort of thing be available commercially, at least for the enthusiasts out there?

I imagine they're thinking of something like ARGUS, detailed in a great PBS program called "Rise of the Drones"

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#22

Post by themeek » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:43 PM UTC

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #7

They mention gigapixel cameras, my (brief) googling couldn't find any evidence that such a thing exists, except for an experimental one at Duke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQXHP7TFUE . Although I suppose a gigapixel photo can be made by taking pictures by multiple cameras at the same time just as well. Still, wouldn't that sort of thing be available commercially, at least for the enthusiasts out there?

"ARGUS"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxNyaXfJsA

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#23

Post by semi-extrinsic » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #7

They mention gigapixel cameras, my (brief) googling couldn't find any evidence that such a thing exists, except for an experimental one at Duke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQXHP7TFUE . Although I suppose a gigapixel photo can be made by taking pictures by multiple cameras at the same time just as well. Still, wouldn't that sort of thing be available commercially, at least for the enthusiasts out there?

There are gigapixel cameras available for enthusiasts today, but they're based on huge (think 20x30 cm) analog film negatives that are subsequently scanned at 3000+ dpi.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#24

Post by rhino369 » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #13

MattGrommes wrote: post #4

" Among the companies offering this technology are major defense contractors working for the Pentagon and an Ohio company called Persistent Surveillance Systems, which is trying to sell it to local police departments." I know this is an unpopular opinion these days but the people working for these companies should be ashamed. There is little use for this technology, especially on US soil, except mass surveillance of…

Also an unpopular opinion is that some people (I am not one of them FYI) think mass surveillance of the population is a good thing. It can be hard to understand that position, but there are people who believe mass surveillance, security theater, and the like really are protecting them and that it is all for their own good. As long as sufficient numbers of these people exist there will be not shortage of people who ar…

It a tool like any other. It can be used for good or evil. What you are doing in the middle of a Baltimore street isn't in any way private information. It's a public as you get.

Sure, it could be used to perpetrate a Holocaust or something, but so could the 101st airborne.

If the government wanted to go all Hitler on us, they already can get google data, facebook data, medical records, essentially everything that is kept on you. Hell, I bet google location services tracks me better than a drone does (if the war in the Pakistan tribal areas is an example).

And drones are way easier to shoot down than googles datacenters.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#25

Post by rfreytag » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:51 PM UTC

Working from the IR surveillance mentioned in the article maybe they are operationalizing ARGUS-IR (http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/I2O/Programs/Autonomous_Real-t... and PBS video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=13BahrdkMU8). It is a sort of "dirtbag" system but for visible and near-visible light.

[Note to self: don't be lit from below when being interviewed on camera, see at min 1:08.]

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#26

Post by cryoshon » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:51 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #20

MattGrommes wrote: post #4

" Among the companies offering this technology are major defense contractors working for the Pentagon and an Ohio company called Persistent Surveillance Systems, which is trying to sell it to local police departments." I know this is an unpopular opinion these days but the people working for these companies should be ashamed. There is little use for this technology, especially on US soil, except mass surveillance of…

You basically say mass surveillance is (figuratively) "literally Hitler", and you think that's an "unpopular opinion" on HN? Well, have I got some fortunate news for you... The fact is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a police department flying an airplane over an area under their jurisdiction with the intent of surveying the area as an intelligence gathering activity. What's actually absurd is the idea that th…

The cops are already flying their choppers all over Baltimore and back in order to keep track of the protests/rioters.

This is something a bit more insidious than simple crowd/crime spotting for ground units. As the article states, this airplane was likely utilizing a few privacy-smashing technologies such as an aerial Stingray (dirtbox) or an ARGOS camera suite, complete with individual identification and tracking for sustained periods of time.

Basically, imagine that airplane having the ability to identify individuals, then track their movements and actions around the city for the duration of its loiter time. Without a warrant. Without any oversight. See the problem?

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#27

Post by Karunamon » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:52 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #20

MattGrommes wrote: post #4

" Among the companies offering this technology are major defense contractors working for the Pentagon and an Ohio company called Persistent Surveillance Systems, which is trying to sell it to local police departments." I know this is an unpopular opinion these days but the people working for these companies should be ashamed. There is little use for this technology, especially on US soil, except mass surveillance of…

You basically say mass surveillance is (figuratively) "literally Hitler", and you think that's an "unpopular opinion" on HN? Well, have I got some fortunate news for you... The fact is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a police department flying an airplane over an area under their jurisdiction with the intent of surveying the area as an intelligence gathering activity. What's actually absurd is the idea that th…

Depends on what their gear is. If they're only looking at things an average person can already see, but on a large scale? Eh, can't really argue with that. If it's in the public eye, it ain't private.

If they're trying to read the heat coming off of buildings, or laser-micing windows, or otherwise trying to look into areas that are not public, they need to knock it off and get a warrant based on probable cause first.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#28

Post by beat » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:53 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #20

MattGrommes wrote: post #4

" Among the companies offering this technology are major defense contractors working for the Pentagon and an Ohio company called Persistent Surveillance Systems, which is trying to sell it to local police departments." I know this is an unpopular opinion these days but the people working for these companies should be ashamed. There is little use for this technology, especially on US soil, except mass surveillance of…

You basically say mass surveillance is (figuratively) "literally Hitler", and you think that's an "unpopular opinion" on HN? Well, have I got some fortunate news for you... The fact is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a police department flying an airplane over an area under their jurisdiction with the intent of surveying the area as an intelligence gathering activity. What's actually absurd is the idea that th…

There are limits to jurisdiction, well defined. For example, police cannot enter your home without your permission, unless they have a warrant from a judge. So if the airplane surveillance is being used to collect and act on data that would normally require a warrant, then "jurisdiction" is not sufficient. Even having the ability to do this is problematic in the eyes of many judges and many civilians (it would be the equivalent of saying "Well, we went into the house with a warrant, but we didn't actually search the house..."

So I am citing as a reason they should not do this the traditions and precedents of common law.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#29

Post by beat » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #27

diminoten wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You basically say mass surveillance is (figuratively) "literally Hitler", and you think that's an "unpopular opinion" on HN? Well, have I got some fortunate news for you... The fact is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a police department flying an airplane over an area under their jurisdiction with the intent of surveying the area as an intelligence gathering activity. What's actually absurd is the idea that th…

Depends on what their gear is. If they're only looking at things an average person can already see, but on a large scale? Eh, can't really argue with that. If it's in the public eye, it ain't private. If they're trying to read the heat coming off of buildings, or laser-micing windows, or otherwise trying to look into areas that are not public, they need to knock it off and get a warrant based on probable cause first.

The average person cannot rewind the cross-town movements of thousands of individuals simultaneously.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#30

Post by rmxt » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:55 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #20

MattGrommes wrote: post #4

" Among the companies offering this technology are major defense contractors working for the Pentagon and an Ohio company called Persistent Surveillance Systems, which is trying to sell it to local police departments." I know this is an unpopular opinion these days but the people working for these companies should be ashamed. There is little use for this technology, especially on US soil, except mass surveillance of…

You basically say mass surveillance is (figuratively) "literally Hitler", and you think that's an "unpopular opinion" on HN? Well, have I got some fortunate news for you... The fact is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a police department flying an airplane over an area under their jurisdiction with the intent of surveying the area as an intelligence gathering activity. What's actually absurd is the idea that th…

You made the Godwin leap that the GP avoided, and putting words in another's mouth like that is an unfortunate way of polarizing discussion.

They shouldn't fly an airplane over their jurisdiction without an express specific intent (e.g., hot criminal pursuit of an individual or individuals) because "gathering intelligence" is not their purpose. Are they in a warzone? Are their taxpaying funders now somehow their subjugated and subservient peoples? Why patrol the area as such?

"Intelligence" appears nowhere in the Public Laws of Baltimore that set out the Police Department's purpose (starting on pg. 73 of the PDF linked below).

http://archive.baltimorecity.gov/Portals/0/Charter%20and%20C...