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Weave is kinda slow

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Re: Weave is kinda slow

#91
post #39

Weave has other issues... like they homebrewed their own ECDHE-PSK-based transport encryption protocol on top of NaCl. Homebrewing your own crypto, especially transport encryption which has to solve problems like key exchange, replay attacks, etc is generally the wrong answer. Also, even if they were using a standard transport encryption like SSL/TLS or IPSEC, PSKs are generally frowned upon for anything other than p…

Tony, the team recently updated the crypto docs to clarify the rationale etc etc - http://weaveworks.github.io/weave/how-it-works.html#crypto ... Moreover the entire crypto code for weave is about 300 lines. Please please please if you are an expert then a thorough review would not only be welcome but also acted upon. Thank-you. Alexis.

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#92
post #8

flannel appears to be what kubernetes is using as well and I know it is what RedHat is using for their OpenShift platform ontop of k8. It seems like the obvious path forward.

although, sometimes not obviously so: https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/kubernetes/pull/4483#...

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#93
post #88
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuck you" would have indeed been a more appropriate response to "how dare you try to implement crypto" FUD. Crypto is hard, but it's no harder than a lot of other hard things. If you think someone's crypto is broken, you could point out why you think it's broken. I see no evidence that consigning crypto to a forbidden zone is going to improve real world security, and the old "mature" cruftpiles seem to manifest prob…

> Crypto is hard, but it's no harder than a lot of other hard things. Crypto is a LOT harder than some other things. 3d graphics programmers don't have to worry about side channel attacks through timing disclosures through random numbers returned over an HTTP GET. Physics simulations don't have to worry about tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of losses because Intel changed the L2 cache slightly in some revisio…

You're right, though there are some things that are about as hard: compilers, language design, machine learning, databases with strong ACID guarantees, etc.

The problem I have with the "crypto should be a forbidden zone" line of reasoning is that the real world evidence shows that the old battle tested systems manifest flaws at least as often as competently designed newer systems do. Crypto, it turns out, is so hard that the probability of lurking issues with mature systems approaches or exceeds the probability of mistakes in new ones.

When I say competently designed, I mean a newer system that passes the sniff tests of experienced crypto engineers. An incomplete list: they're using a cipher that's been peer reviewed and is considered strong by modern standards, they're using that cipher correctly, they're authenticating before doing anything, they are using an IV (if needed), they are not sending anything secret in the clear, they're not branching on secret data, etc.

It's also important to refrain from criticizing people for claims they are not making. As far as I know, Weave is not claiming to implement the entire feature set of IPSec. They're just claiming to offer basic but strong crypto and authentication. If you want more, you are likely using other algorithms like SSL and SSH over the overlay network.

Yes, that comes with a performance penalty, but it's also defense in depth. It's better to trust multiple layers of crypto with independent implementations at each layer so that a compromise of one does not destroy your entire security posture.

It all comes down to the question of how paranoid you are. No encryption will give you the best performance, but no security. If you want maximums security you can run SSL over IPSec over Weave with different sets of keys and different ciphers at each level. Bonus points for generating those keys on different air-gapped hardware, etc.

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#94
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak as if SSL/TLS hasn't been a rat's nest of problems. If they did it competently, there is no reason they couldn't implement their own crypto encapsulation. As far as why they rolled their own... have you ever actually tried to use IPSec? It's a usability nightmare. It's also problematic in containers due to container permission issues. I suppose they could have used DSSL (datagram SSL) but that'd probably ad…

True. We did try ipsec, and couldn't find an implementation that was oss, demonstrably safe, and easy enough to pull into a first release. As weave matures, we'd love to work with experts to implement standard solutions, even if they are costly to put in place.

"demonstrably safe" -- this is another issue I have with this crypto conservative FUD.

"Use SSL, don't roll your own!"

Then we get BEAST, CRIME, Heartbleed, etc., and we discover that the dominant SSL/TLS implementation is a rat's nest of comically awful code:

http://opensslrampage.org

Look at the older posts for LuLz like: http://opensslrampage.org/post/83007010531/well-even-if-time...

I wonder just how much scrutiny IPSec implementations have gotten, especially since it's such a usability nightmare that nobody uses it.

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I feel a little guilty after writing this article, as the speed of the implementation is simply a detail. However, I feel no such guilt in condemning Weave's security. This is a conversation I had with @weave a while ago about their encryption https://twitter.com/lclarkmichalek/status/544882194456776705

This "our project is open source, feel free to submit a patch" dismissal is so passive aggressive. If you mean "fuck you," then just say "fuck you." That said, you shouldn't be saying "fuck you" in the first place: it's rude, it contributes to bad vibes in the OSS community, and it hurts you more than anybody. Try instead something like: "I'm having trouble understanding your argument, do you mind explaining in more…

I'm tired of all this talk about passive agressive.

How about a different explanation: After answering time and time again on twitter he found out he had other things to do and played the "show me the code" card?

And yes noobs[0]: Show me the code is a valid card in programming discussions.

[0]: here I am purposefully rude, feel free to take offense if you think it helps - or feel free think twice or even laugh with me.

Open source and computing culture has to a certain degree been a safe haven based on technical skills. Lets try to keep it that way as long as possible, shall we?

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone meant, or said, "fuck you". Why are you even implying such a thing? Ultimately we can't work on even a fraction of the features that every person wants, and Laurie said his idea was simple to implement... so why not show how it's done? Honestly, it's not that sinister and it is certainly not rude.

To put it simply, if @monadic were receptive to @lclarkmichalek's ideas, why did he end the conversation? But let's look at the Tweet in question: "@lclarkmichalek @weavenetwork please, if it is so simple and robust you are very welcome to contribute a patch." 1. He says "please", which in this case is sarcastic. 2. Then he says "if it is so simple," which is a dismissive way of saying "you think that it's simple, bu…

> To put it simply, if @monadic were receptive to @lclarkmichalek's ideas, why did he end the conversation?

It was actually @lclarkmichalek who ended the conversation.

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "our project is open source, feel free to submit a patch" dismissal is so passive aggressive. If you mean "fuck you," then just say "fuck you." That said, you shouldn't be saying "fuck you" in the first place: it's rude, it contributes to bad vibes in the OSS community, and it hurts you more than anybody. Try instead something like: "I'm having trouble understanding your argument, do you mind explaining in more…

I find your attitude the ruder. Users of paid products have the right to complain about stuff like that; it's literally what they paid for. Users of open source projects have no such right: if you know what to do, why not make yourself useful instead of bitching out someone who's volunteered their free time to make your life easier? I have very little patience with armchair pundits myself, if you submit a pull reques…

"why not make yourself useful instead of bitching out someone who's volunteered their free time to make your life easier"

Because as soon as you've found issues with more than, say, 3 things, you no longer have enough of your own free time to volunteer to solve the problem in a better way, let alone whatever you were already working on. Do you honestly believe that criticism has no value?

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. We did try ipsec, and couldn't find an implementation that was oss, demonstrably safe, and easy enough to pull into a first release. As weave matures, we'd love to work with experts to implement standard solutions, even if they are costly to put in place.

"demonstrably safe" -- this is another issue I have with this crypto conservative FUD. "Use SSL, don't roll your own!" Then we get BEAST, CRIME, Heartbleed, etc., and we discover that the dominant SSL/TLS implementation is a rat's nest of comically awful code: http://opensslrampage.org Look at the older posts for LuLz like: http://opensslrampage.org/post/83007010531/well-even-if-time... I wonder just how much scrutin…

indeed. at the risk of entering tinfoil hat land, note the following http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/12/on-new-snowd... ..although also the not 100% reassuring https://nohats.ca/wordpress/blog/2014/12/29/dont-stop-using-...

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your attitude the ruder. Users of paid products have the right to complain about stuff like that; it's literally what they paid for. Users of open source projects have no such right: if you know what to do, why not make yourself useful instead of bitching out someone who's volunteered their free time to make your life easier? I have very little patience with armchair pundits myself, if you submit a pull reques…

"why not make yourself useful instead of bitching out someone who's volunteered their free time to make your life easier" Because as soon as you've found issues with more than, say, 3 things, you no longer have enough of your own free time to volunteer to solve the problem in a better way, let alone whatever you were already working on. Do you honestly believe that criticism has no value?

Complaining on twitter is not the same as finding an issue! Criticism has value, but not all commentary deserves equal weight or time before it is reasonable to request reciprocal effort.

Re: Weave is kinda slow

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your attitude the ruder. Users of paid products have the right to complain about stuff like that; it's literally what they paid for. Users of open source projects have no such right: if you know what to do, why not make yourself useful instead of bitching out someone who's volunteered their free time to make your life easier? I have very little patience with armchair pundits myself, if you submit a pull reques…

"why not make yourself useful instead of bitching out someone who's volunteered their free time to make your life easier" Because as soon as you've found issues with more than, say, 3 things, you no longer have enough of your own free time to volunteer to solve the problem in a better way, let alone whatever you were already working on. Do you honestly believe that criticism has no value?

It has vanishingly little and there's certainly no shortage of people handing it out for free. There's a reason for aphorisms such as "talk is cheap" and "my two cents". You seem to value your own time extremely highly; where's the respect for others?
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