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Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

nytimes.com

11–20 of 104 posts

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#11

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

> some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous

there are no such thing as "non-French speaking neighborhoods" in France.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#12

I'm wondering, is it possible to circumvent the surveillance, still enjoy a good internet experience, while not devoting too much resources? I suppose it starts with a VPN service. I use VPNs occasionally, but never in a systematic way. How convenient are they in term of reliability and performance? then, what about gmail? are there other email providers that offer better privacy guarantees and offer a comparable ser…

VPN will make you a target. That's the whole point of recording at the ISP level, the traffic is still quite individualized.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#13

I'm wondering, is it possible to circumvent the surveillance, still enjoy a good internet experience, while not devoting too much resources? I suppose it starts with a VPN service. I use VPNs occasionally, but never in a systematic way. How convenient are they in term of reliability and performance? then, what about gmail? are there other email providers that offer better privacy guarantees and offer a comparable ser…

Pretty good resource here:

https://www.privacytools.io/

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#14

The US has a huge influence over other free nations, and has especially since WW2. They mimic the US, they take cues from the US in terms of what behavior is acceptable, they often expect the US to lead by example. In the two centuries prior to WW2, Europe was dominated by dictators and monarchies. Afterward, the entire region was remodeled on American style government representation, modern central banking, market e…

Afterward, the entire region was remodeled on American style government representation, modern central banking, market economies and so on. No, not really. The dominant form of government in Europe is the parliamentary republic (several at the backdrop of constitutional/ceremonial monarchies), compared to the more unique federalist model of the United States where there is a strict separation between the union and lo…

> The dominant form of government in Europe is the parliamentary republic

You mean "parliamentary democracy" (which is a subtype of representative democracy), not "parliamentary republic". "Republic" specifically means the absence of a monarch, which, as you note, is not a feature of many of the systems at issue.

(Some, however, are republics, as well as parliamentary democracies.)

> Central banking was initially a European (British, I think?) invention.

The Bank of England wasn't the first central bank (Sweden, at least, had one first), though its often credited as being the dominant model for later central banks. It does seem to be a European invention.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#15

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

Living in France (and more specifically, in Paris) for 46 years, this is definitively not my experience or that of anyone I know.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#16

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

"...some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their own safety..."

???

Do you know what the area this friend spoke of was ???

Serious question.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#17

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

This sounds like a second-hand, heavily distorted description. For instance it's almost impossible to live in there without an ID of some sort. As a siblings post said, non-french speaking neighbourhoods are not a thing. As for being mugged/robbed etc .. yes it's quite possible in Paris and its suburbs, and you have to be careful (like not showing off your expensive gadgets out in the open)

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#18

I'm wondering, is it possible to circumvent the surveillance, still enjoy a good internet experience, while not devoting too much resources? I suppose it starts with a VPN service. I use VPNs occasionally, but never in a systematic way. How convenient are they in term of reliability and performance? then, what about gmail? are there other email providers that offer better privacy guarantees and offer a comparable ser…

VPN will make you a target. That's the whole point of recording at the ISP level, the traffic is still quite individualized.

Saying "encryption makes you a target" represents a lack of understanding for how spy agencies monitor all communications.

It's not like spy agency analysts target only some people and when they are in their offices and see some encrypted traffic from someone they go: "AHA! This guy uses encryption - let's monitor his (encrypted) communications and his metadata!"

It's more like everyone's wide-open communications are monitored in real-time and automatically searched for keywords. Not using encryption makes you more exposed and vulnerable to mass surveillance, not less, because everything is exposed by default without encryption and everything is searched.

It doesn't matter whether you're plotting an attack or "only talking about cats (therefore they can't possibly be interested in what I'm saying!)". It doesn't work like that, because there isn't a human that does the automatic searching, but software.

To make it even simpler: it's like law enforcement saying "hmm, this guy put curtains on his windows - he must have something to hide! Let's watch him more closely to see where he's going when he leaves the house, and such"

vs

you going to law enforcement and giving them a daily report of what you've been doing, as well as full recordings of everything you talked about.

Which is worse?

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#19
This is a huge setback, both for democracy and for the french tech ecosystem.

While the most preeminent french hosting and cloud providers (OVH, Online, Gandi, Alter Way...) have been quite vocal about the issue, none of the big french telcos (Orange, SFR, Bouygues) have said a single word about it. Shame on them!

900 tech companies, research organisations, and trade associations (so far) have asked the government to reconsider the law proposal (http://ni-pigeons-ni-espions.fr/en/), with not success, obviously. Several organisations I'm part of (including the two companies I have founded) where part of the movement, of course.

There is still some hope that the law will be modified, by the french Senate, or that it will be censored by the french Constitutional Council, or the European Court of Human Rights.

We also plan to start evangelising people on the use of VPNs.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#20

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

Maybe it's time to change your friends?

- there is a lot of criminality in Paris and suburbs, but I have been robbed only once, in a real shithole. There is a lot of white collar criminality too.

- there are no non-french neighborhood, most people have french citizenship, most immigrants are from a french speaking country, and even inside a high immigration area, since people are coming from different countries, french language still serves as a communication tool. You will find a foreign language inside a family, sometimes the women won't speak french, but certainly not an entire neighborhood (you will definitely hear some foreign languages in the streets). And contrary to popular belief, almost nobody speaks natively arabic, you will find popular arabic courses (because speaking arabic looks cool in somme communities, and for reading the koran), but very few native speakers.

- I'd be very interested in detailed stories of non-white looking people not carrying an ID in France, last time I heard of a brown guy not having an ID it was in the news because the guy was released in appeal: "looking north african does not constitute a reasonable suspicion" (first time ever in France that a racist targeting derails a procedure). It gives you the tonality of the police here. If's you're not white, don't drive a luxury car, you'll get harassed.

Don't go out without an ID if you're not white in France, never. They can and will detain you for 4h without any suspicion of crime. Since it's not a criminal procedure, you'll have no lawyer.

I'm white, I always go out without an ID, because of white privilege, but my mixed race nephew doesn't have that luxury.

(street cred: I lived in a Paris suburb from birth to 18yo, in a shitty area, then I considered my debt to society repaid and I lived everywhere but Paris)

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