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Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

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41–50 of 51 posts

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#41
The first thing I'd do is look up their funding on AngelList. This can be an indicator of what the equity is worth -- without knowing the terms it's only an indicator though. These numbers are also useful for determining how stable the company is. If they have 8 engineers and 10-12 other employees but only had a $500k seed round, it's a very risky job -- if its closer to $2m, its a bit safer.

As far as actual numbers go, that's entirely dependent on what you think you're worth, and what you think that equity is worth. You're the 21st employee, and they are raising money, so it isn't exactly a red flag to me. Treat the equity as a bonus that may never come to fruition.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were right to give you the offer they did looking at your reaction. $130k is not lowball. 0.2% is not lowball. Both are on the mid-to-low side of appropriate if we take you at your word for skill and fit. More than that, respect has nothing to do with it. Just rm -rf that whole train of thought from your head. Compensation negotiations are negotiations , which means this is a conversation. Conversations go two w…

Lowball is a strong word, but it's below market. If startups can't compete on total comp, they have to pad it with equity. OP is getting worst of both worlds. 0.2% of a pre-VC company is absolutely nothing, and there are several engineers ahead of him for seniority, so he won't even get title inflation in the end. It's not that it's an insulting offer, it's just that they can't afford you. For a fresh grad, it would…

$130k cash is very strong from a seed-funded startup. I agree completely with your final sentence.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#43
Almost twenty employees, working remotely so you're probably not management, significant traction already, likely access to additional capital - okay, the equity seems a little low for 2015 but not obscenely so. There's more equity out there, but for riskier situations - earlier employees at companies with no prospects of further funding at their current level of traction.

Since your equity has a relatively small chance of being worth anything anyway, 'significant traction' or not, I'd focus on the things that'll definitely be a factor in your life - things like the work, the people, your salary, and so on.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#44
post #21

First off, it's probably not lack of respect. If you really think that and you can't get it out of your head, then don't join the company. To me, that seems like a market salary. For better or worse, experience doesn't count for that much in the market for software engineers. You could probably trade some salary for equity. It's all about your personal situation and how much cash you need. For me, 130k would be a bit…

A 30k of 'salary per year' trade for equity should really get the same deal as the investors get. Assume that you take that salary and then invest 30k into the company.

Note, when you are investing money into company you are not getting any ridiculous vesting cliffs, you are getting a multiplier as a valuation cap and usually your invest in convertible debt, not stocks.

(as a side note, if you are a professional who can contribute from the first day at work with virtually zero effort spent on you to get you up to speed, you really should try to negotiate for monthly vesting with no cliff for all your equity.)

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#45
post #18

I've never worked at an early-stage company, so I have more questions than answers. Isn't 0.2% basically nothing? Even if GoogleSoftBook buys the company right now for $100M, you get (at best) $200k. And that's not going to happen. Probably more money will be raised, your 0.2% will be diluted, and a $100M exit is rare. So you'll end up with less than 1yr of salary for all that risk and lost salary/benefits in the mea…

So here's the deal from my perspective:

A venture-backed startup is typically looking at a $1B valuation goal, with $300-$600M being "successful," and $100M is, at best, a consolation prize. From the perspective of outsiders, it's tempting to only consider orders of magnitude, but note that the difference between a $80M acquisition and a $150M acquisition -- which if you're just reading about it in the press are probably both compressed to "around $100M," is an almost 2x payout difference for investors.

0.2% isn't almost nothing. $200k from a consolation prize is not almost nothing. $600k-$1M from a basically successful but non-unicorn monetization is definitely not nothing!

0.2% in a pre-series-A company is also just the very start of a long conversation, not the end of it. You are of course correct that there is likely to be dilution. There are also going to be more stock grants long before any monetization event. If you stick out a job that starts with a 0.2% grant for long enough for that grant to fully vest, much less for long enough for it to monetize, it would not be, in my experience, unlikely to have another 0.2% (of the original size share-pool) coming.

My experience is also that if there is a lot of dilution, the company will at least mitigate that dilution for employees with new grants. Maybe not totally counteract it, and maybe not mitigate it at all if the dilution is, like 20%, but if your grants are halved by dilution, I would expect the company to bring you back up to 80%+.

I think that a lot of people fixate on the initial grant. That makes sense if you're a founder or, like, a really really early employee who took basically no salary and instead got 1%+. Maybe those people never see significantly more stock after their initial grant. My experience from having taken a few offers in the 0.1-0.5% range is that you will see materially more stock in new grants as time goes on. Of course, that's only a few companies, and maybe I've just dealt with unusually reasonable companies.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#46
post #18

I've never worked at an early-stage company, so I have more questions than answers. Isn't 0.2% basically nothing? Even if GoogleSoftBook buys the company right now for $100M, you get (at best) $200k. And that's not going to happen. Probably more money will be raised, your 0.2% will be diluted, and a $100M exit is rare. So you'll end up with less than 1yr of salary for all that risk and lost salary/benefits in the mea…

So here's the deal from my perspective: A venture-backed startup is typically looking at a $1B valuation goal, with $300-$600M being "successful," and $100M is, at best, a consolation prize. From the perspective of outsiders, it's tempting to only consider orders of magnitude, but note that the difference between a $80M acquisition and a $150M acquisition -- which if you're just reading about it in the press are prob…

'a really really early employee who took basically no salary' -- this is a description of a founder.

'and instead got 1%+.' -- this is a description of somebody who had decided to work for free for some reason.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#47
post #21

First off, it's probably not lack of respect. If you really think that and you can't get it out of your head, then don't join the company. To me, that seems like a market salary. For better or worse, experience doesn't count for that much in the market for software engineers. You could probably trade some salary for equity. It's all about your personal situation and how much cash you need. For me, 130k would be a bit…

A 30k of 'salary per year' trade for equity should really get the same deal as the investors get. Assume that you take that salary and then invest 30k into the company. Note, when you are investing money into company you are not getting any ridiculous vesting cliffs, you are getting a multiplier as a valuation cap and usually your invest in convertible debt, not stocks. (as a side note, if you are a professional who…

Sure, in theory I agree with you but I don't think it's possible to calculate like that. We're talking about trading somebody's time and creativity for salary and equity paid out monthly.

As you point out, the deal structure is very different from a deal that would be made with an investor. I'm guessing the company wouldn't take a 30k check from an investor right now or agree to take 5 * 30k from a single investor allocated monthly over the next 5 years. Also, him having more equity will probably make him a more valuable/devoted employee so that needs to be factored in.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#48
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 30k of 'salary per year' trade for equity should really get the same deal as the investors get. Assume that you take that salary and then invest 30k into the company. Note, when you are investing money into company you are not getting any ridiculous vesting cliffs, you are getting a multiplier as a valuation cap and usually your invest in convertible debt, not stocks. (as a side note, if you are a professional who…

Sure, in theory I agree with you but I don't think it's possible to calculate like that. We're talking about trading somebody's time and creativity for salary and equity paid out monthly. As you point out, the deal structure is very different from a deal that would be made with an investor. I'm guessing the company wouldn't take a 30k check from an investor right now or agree to take 5 * 30k from a single investor al…

You are right, and yet, when the salary had been established it should be possible to talk about trading somebody's salary (money) for equity. And compare that deal with the deal that the investors investing money get. As it is possible to take that 30k/year salary and invest is elsewhere, on the terms that investors investing money get (convertible debt, valuation cap, etc).

Thinking about it as money allows one to make a prudent investment decision.

I'm actually surprised that YC people haven't streamlined that process of trading early-employee salaries for convertible debt. Current situation with early-employees equity really screws up a lot of early employees and in my opinion poisons the startup atmosphere in the Bay Area quite a bit.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here's the deal from my perspective: A venture-backed startup is typically looking at a $1B valuation goal, with $300-$600M being "successful," and $100M is, at best, a consolation prize. From the perspective of outsiders, it's tempting to only consider orders of magnitude, but note that the difference between a $80M acquisition and a $150M acquisition -- which if you're just reading about it in the press are prob…

'a really really early employee who took basically no salary' -- this is a description of a founder. 'and instead got 1%+.' -- this is a description of somebody who had decided to work for free for some reason.

Well, really, it doesn't matter how much salary they did or didn't give up for these purposes. The point is, if your initial grant is, say, 1.5%, then maybe your later grants will be pretty insignificant in comparison. But if your initial grant is 0.2%, there's no reason why you can't get significantly more stock through later grants.

Re: Ask HN: Should I join startup for less-than-expected equity?

#50

Also, I'd be leaving a job I really don't like at a Silicon Valley spinoff. $150K salary, 0.75% equity, shiny CEO with regular Fox-Business-News appearances, rising company notoriety, selling into a hot market. The company will never raise more "venture" funding, the parent will structure future injections as debt (at a reasonable interest rate, likely, but probably less onerous than VC). This current company has a h…

Are you able to get the payout for that equity if you leave that job? That is, are you vested and can you exercise the options without significant pain?

Exercise != payout

Exercising options generally gives you shares in the company, not a payout. A payout would require selling the shares. Normally you can exercise vested options at any time very easily. Selling those shares you received from the exercise for cash is not as easy.

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