The programming talent myth • Hacker News Board

Re: The programming talent myth

#171

Post by TheSOB888 » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

hn_ wrote: post #156

rifung wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do believe that anyone can learn to play the piano, although I would admit it's harder for some than for others. A lot of it has to do with finding the right teacher though. What exactly do you mean by you were unable to? People have different ideas of what it means to be able to play the piano. For classically pianists, it just means you can read notes and play the corresponding notes. I imagine anyone could memor…

I actually never tried to play the piano, just the flute and later percussion. >For classically pianists, it just means you can read notes and play the corresponding notes Couldn't do that. Couldn't read notes, not even very simple pieces. Reading which note was what, them and then thinking about the corresponding fingering, doing it while following along with the beat... nope, never happened. It wasn't like I didn't…

>I also was unable to ever learn my multiplication tables. >I don't have a learning disability

Maybe you don't have a learning disability, but you definitely seem like you have some sort of mental block that is preventing you from being able to learn certain things. Maybe things you consider boring, and you can't focus enough on them to get past them?

Re: The programming talent myth

#172

Post by zaccus » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

hn_ wrote: post #114

dragonwriter wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will certainly never say "anyone can learn how to code" any more than I'd say "anyone can become a concert pianist" I would certainly say "anyone can learn how to code" in the same way that I would say "anyone can learn how to write", or "anyone can learn to run", or "anyone can learn to play piano". I wouldn't say "anyone can learn to become a concert pianist", in the same way that I wouldn't say "anyone can lea…

>anyone can learn to play piano Is there a belief that anyone can learn to play the piano? I can't. I struggled for many years trying to learn various instruments. I failed miserably no matter how hard I tried. I tried and I tried, I really wanted to be able to play an instrument, any instrument, but I was unable to. I'm not dumb, I am a programmer, but music was just something my brain couldn't comprehend. Of course…

Learning a musical instrument is hard work, but yes anybody can learn to play on an intermediate level. It takes zero talent to do that, but hours and hours of practice with a metronome.

"Able to play the piano" means you can look at a lead sheet with chords on it and play basic accompaniment to a melody. That's not difficult at all once you've learned how to do it.

I would say "able to program" means you can take an arbitrary set of feature requirements and write a program that fulfills those requirements.

Re: The programming talent myth

#173

Post by mannykannot » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

platz wrote: post #100

vectorpush wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The findings of this study have been formally retracted by the author. http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/staffpages/r_bornat/papers/camel_hu...

Well I won't be linking that anymore. Anyways, I was really more interested in the little narrative observation above than the numerical results of the study.

The quote reminded me of a study I read about a year ago, in which the problem-solving skills of toddlers and chimps were compared. The toddlers generally did better, except in one regard: when shown how to do something, but with some pretty obviously irrelevant steps included, the chimps were quicker and more likely to drop the pointless steps. At the time, I thought that might be explained by a human predisposition to pay attention to authority, but, in the light of that quote, perhaps it is (also) a predisposition to formal / abstract thinking? Furthermore (to make a wild speculative leap) perhaps it is this predisposition that is actually behind the phenomena that Chomsky thinks are evidence for an innate universal grammar?

Re: The programming talent myth

#174

Post by themagician » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

empressplay wrote: post #3

That programming is a talent is not a myth, and while my life is currently devoted to developing a platform to encourage more people to learn the basics of computer science, I will certainly never say "anyone can learn how to code" any more than I'd say "anyone can become a concert pianist" or "anyone can become a master painter." Good programming is an art, and requires talent on the part of the programmer. There's…

Good programming is an art. The same can be said for good photos, or good works or fiction, or great compositions.

The reality is that most computer programs don't need to be good. In most cases they don't even need to be efficient. They just need to work. Even then, they usually just need to work for a short time because of the ephemeral world of software development we live in.

There are some really incredible engineers out there. When I look at their code I'm often in awe. "Why didn't I think about that," is what I think to myself. Or someone is using some bizarre function or mathematics that I don't understand to achieve something with an efficiency I couldn't ever come close to in my own code.

Most people who make a living writing code are just writing the same things over and over again for different employers. There's no elegance in what they do. There's no art. I make websites, apps, and simple programs for automation. Sometimes the end result looks pretty, but if I'm being honest with myself the code is very… meh. Anyone could do it.

Living in the Bay Area I can safely say it's mostly a dog and pony show. There are a few people doing something really interesting, actually pushing the limits of technology. Most of us are not those people. Most of us (myself included) are writing garbage for silly products that people use to distract themselves. It's fun, but not really challenging. Most of the people I work with have no idea what hard work actually is.

Working in the Bay Area is the easiest thing I've ever done. Honestly, I didn't realize life could be so easy. Learn how to sell yourself, make something appear on an iPad, and people want to pay you $100k/yr. Sometimes I feel like a thief, but everyone around me is doing the same thing.

Re: The programming talent myth

#175

Post by kaitai » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

Last summer I went into a job interview and said "I'm not really a programmer."

The next week I was hired to do Ruby on Rails work for a freelance contract. (I'd been lured to the interview to talk about data analysis with R but they needed a Rails person more.) Clearly the interviewers thought my level of experience was fine.

I've got a PhD in mathematics and am no stranger to technical fields. I can't believe I was "that woman" who said she wasn't a programmer. It really does happen. My G-d, I'm a cliche.

Re: The programming talent myth

#176

Post by zaccus » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:38 PM UTC

hn_ wrote: post #156

rifung wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do believe that anyone can learn to play the piano, although I would admit it's harder for some than for others. A lot of it has to do with finding the right teacher though. What exactly do you mean by you were unable to? People have different ideas of what it means to be able to play the piano. For classically pianists, it just means you can read notes and play the corresponding notes. I imagine anyone could memor…

I actually never tried to play the piano, just the flute and later percussion. >For classically pianists, it just means you can read notes and play the corresponding notes Couldn't do that. Couldn't read notes, not even very simple pieces. Reading which note was what, them and then thinking about the corresponding fingering, doing it while following along with the beat... nope, never happened. It wasn't like I didn't…

You've said multiple times in these posts that you "can't" do this or that. That is an excuse. Stop it.

Re: The programming talent myth

#177

Post by hn_ » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:38 PM UTC

TheSOB888 wrote: post #171

hn_ wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually never tried to play the piano, just the flute and later percussion. >For classically pianists, it just means you can read notes and play the corresponding notes Couldn't do that. Couldn't read notes, not even very simple pieces. Reading which note was what, them and then thinking about the corresponding fingering, doing it while following along with the beat... nope, never happened. It wasn't like I didn't…

>I also was unable to ever learn my multiplication tables. >I don't have a learning disability Maybe you don't have a learning disability, but you definitely seem like you have some sort of mental block that is preventing you from being able to learn certain things. Maybe things you consider boring, and you can't focus enough on them to get past them?

Yeah, no, you are 100% wrong.

Re: The programming talent myth

#178

Post by verbin217 » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:38 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #120

jeremiep wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From personal experience, speed has very little to do with productivity. Productivity is a function of knowledge and experience. The most productive programmers I've met almost always had enough experience in what not to use. They have a clear focus on the simplicity of their code and their ability to reason about it. They understand the problem and the hardware as well as the language in a very detailed manner. They…

> From personal experience, speed has very little to do with productivity. Productivity is a function of knowledge and experience. As I wrote elsewhere, it's not just speed. The more talented programmers I referred to write better, cleaner, more performant and more elegant code -- and they do it faster. > Productive programmers don't really type faster or think faster. They just make far less mistakes to begin with a…

I suspect those that learn to program before they're expected to have more undirected time to consider alternative formulations of their programs. People who learn later aren't performing the playful exploration that's necessary for independent mastery. They're just treating it like any other subject and completing tasks for the approval of an authority figure. I watched plenty of students learn bad habits from arrogant teachers like it was just "the way" you program. We don't have some master method of programming that can be taught that way. It's not like we're building bridges and already know pretty much exactly what we're doing. The craft is evolving before our eyes. They have to understand the incomplete state of our knowledge to know that they should seek superiority amongst potential selves and not merely acceptance from some external deity.

Re: The programming talent myth

#179

Post by kaitai » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

67726e wrote: post #94

nilkn wrote: post #58

My own experience just does not agree with this at all. First, I think we have to distinguish between two ideas here: * The first is the question of whether anyone can learn to program. I think that for the most part everybody can, just like for the most part everybody can learn high school calculus. * The second is the question of whether programming ability is bimodal. This is not related to the first question, and…

Been screwing with computers since 9 or so, and programming since 11 or so. I'm now about 4 years into my professional career and usually get the typical "amazing programmer" remarks, that I'm fast, smart, good code, beyond my years, etc. I think that a lot of things go into it. First, practice, practice, practice. I spent waaaaay too much time in high school writing/designing/building projects. By the time I hit uni…

The root of this is what you point out in paragraph four: fear. My worst math students are just afraid to do anything, as if they'll break the math problem or it will bite them or they'll sustain indefinite psychological damage just by touching it. And that's a four-sentence word problem. It's about mindset rather than ability. Ability helps, no doubt, but you have to start solving the problem for ability to even become relevant.

Re: The programming talent myth

#180

Post by whyaduck » Mon, May 04, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #130

>But that would mean that programming skill is somehow distributed on a U-shaped curve. Most people are at one end or the other, which doesn't make much sense. But this is exactly the case! It's why Fizz Buzz exists: to determine if you're on the left leg or the right of the U-curve. (Or similar curve wherein people "suck at programming" or that they "rock at programming", without leaving any room for those in betwee…

FizzBuzz is a test, not the results. If you can point to a study that has administered it to a well selected group representative of professional software engineers that displays a bi-modal distribution, then I'll accept that as evidence. Until then, it's just anecdotal data about the quality of a self-selected group attempting to get a well paid job.